Tate Publishing

[Mr.H.]

Originally Posted by ResearchGuy

Maybe a lot short.

I'd second the recommendation to pursue real commercial publication as the first option, to exhaust that path first.

There are plenty of resources on how to write queries and book proposals, how to find agents and publishers (ones that accept unsolicited queries/proposals).

Mr.H. should take this to heart: "the value of persistence in the face of adversity." The core lesson of the useful book How I got Published (Writer's Digest Books, 2007) is persistence.

--Ken

Those are kind words, and I appreciate them, Toothpaste and ResearchGuy. I'm learning that just because the first publisher I sent to accepted it, doesn't mean a) it's good (but I hope it is!), or b) they don't have an agenda. I really like this story, which is ultimately important as the author, but I guess I need to shop it around a bit first.

[Mr.H.]

Originally Posted by Queen of Swords

Query all the agents you can first.

If they all say no, query publishers.

If they all say no, consider self-publishing.

If you decide that's not for you, go with a vanity press.

At least, that's the sequence in which I would do it.

OK now, here's where I am completely confused; Do I need an agent? I am seeing them used, and I am seeing people submitting directly. I know it depends on the submission guidelines of the publisher, and it can't hurt my project, but isn't that more or less another middleman or extra step? I don't know enough to be directly insulting anyone, so if that was insulting in any way, I didn't mean it to be.
And, not like we are all millionaires here, but I don't have any extra pennies to pay anyone with right now. Literally! The idea of postage to send inquiry letters alone has me shaking (yes, rock bottom. Thanks economic downturn!). Do they get paid a fee? A percentage? Both? What would I pay if I'm turned down by everyone? Certainly they won't work for free. Thus, my dilemma. AAaarrrrgghhhh!!

[Mr.H.]

Originally Posted by AC Crispin

Mr. H, why are you making the assumption that Tate authors earn back the money they pay by selling 5000
copies?

Writer Beware asked Tate a couple of years ago to document how many of their authors had earned back the money they had paid by selling 5000 copies of their book. Tate did not provide us with a single title that had accomplished this.

If they've given you titles of their books that have achieved 5000 in sales, I'd be very interested in knowing what those titles are.

By the way, have you ever been to a bookstore, or a Christian bookstore, and looked for any Tate titles there? I have.

I didn't find any. Nobody I've ever heard from has found any.

That 5000 copies sold goal is something most vanity published authors haven't a hope of achieving.

-Ann C. Crispin
Chair, Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com

Yes, I mentioned earlier that I went to a couple bookstores in my area, and they said I could get any Tate book I wanted, if I ordered it and waited. They had none on the shelves.
"available", "in stock", and "on the shelf" are entirely different, I'm discovering!

[ResearchGuy]

Originally Posted by Mr.H.

OK now, here's where I am completely confused; Do I need an agent? . . .

It depends.

BTW, legitimate agents do NOT charge for their services except through a percentage of the author's advances and other royalties on books sold by the agent. (They might expect reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses, though, but you would incur those expenses if querying publishers directly anyway.)

Email me for a free pdf of my booklet "The Pursuit of Publishing: An Unvarnished Guide for the Perplexed." I wrote it for people just like you, and it has drawn appreciative responses. (You can buy it in booklet form from Lulu.com, but I'll send a pdf version for free if you ask.) It does not answer all the questions. Rather, it helps you to know what the right questions are and shows where and how to find answers.

--Ken

[Queen of Swords]

Originally Posted by Mr.H.

OK now, here's where I am completely confused; Do I need an agent? I am seeing them used, and I am seeing people submitting directly. I know it depends on the submission guidelines of the publisher, and it can't hurt my project, but isn't that more or less another middleman or extra step?

Reasons I'd query agents first :

1. Some of the major houses which take fantasy novels don't want unagented submissions. Others will accept them, but take a long time to respond. This depends on your genre, of course.

2. If I query all the agents first, I can still query publishers if the agents all refuse. On the other hand, it doesn't work the other way around - agents rarely want to see a manuscript that's been shopped around to all the publishers.

My agent also pointed out a few problems in the manuscript, which helped me get it into the best possible shape before submissions.

And, not like we are all millionaires here, but I don't have any extra pennies to pay anyone with right now.

I queried my agent via email. Most agents these days take email.

Do they get paid a fee? A percentage? Both? What would I pay if I'm turned down by everyone? Certainly they won't work for free. Thus, my dilemma. AAaarrrrgghhhh!!

Most legitimate agents take 15% of whatever you earn, and don't change upfront fees. If you sign up with an agent and the book doesn't sell, that's a risk the agent takes.

[Mr.H.]

Originally Posted by ResearchGuy

It depends.

BTW, legitimate agents do NOT charge for their services except through a percentage of the author's advances and other royalties on books sold by the agent. (They might expect reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses, though, but you would incur those expenses if querying publishers directly anyway.)

Email me for a free pdf of my booklet "The Pursuit of Publishing: An Unvarnished Guide for the Perplexed." I wrote it for people just like you, and it has drawn appreciative responses. (You can buy it in booklet form from Lulu.com, but I'll send a pdf version for free if you ask.) It does not answer all the questions. Rather, it helps you to know what the right questions are and shows where and how to find answers.

--Ken

Your offer of help is most generous, and I appreciate it. My request is on the way!

[Mr.H.]

Originally Posted by Queen of Swords

...agents rarely want to see a manuscript that's been shopped around to all the publishers.

I queried my agent via email. Most agents these days take email.

...that's a risk the agent takes.

SEE? There we go! Three answers to some of my worries. Thank you.

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Mr.H.

And, not like we are all millionaires here, but I don't have any extra pennies to pay anyone with right now.

Any agent who charges an up-front fee (no matter what they call it or how they justify it) is a scammer.

Money flows toward the writer. The only place a writer signs a check is on the back.

[Mr.H.]

Ok, that's IT!! I've decided to decline Tate's offer, and search for an agent. I've written a draft of my query letter in the SYW area ("nervously begging for help"), so please, if you have time, go there and be evil to it until I have a shot.

(here's the link http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103425

[callalily61]

Mr. H., GOOD FOR YOU!

Alas, I know nothing about querying children's books, so I won't pop over there just to give you misinformation.

Keep us posted!

[Old Hack]

I don't know about children's books either, but good for you, Mr. H. You've made the right decision.

[Mr.H.]

Thanks, guys. I'd still welcome your input anyway, if you get a chance to look it over.

[Kenneth E. Wimer Esq]

The require author participation of $3,985.00.

[Kenneth E. Wimer Esq]

Never mind they are on the two thumbs down list.

[JennaGlatzer]

Hi Kenneth,

There's a long thread here about them: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=992

In the future, please check the index before starting a new thread. We try to keep just one thread about each company. I'll close this one.

[Sparkle]

Hi,

I have read the many posting on Tate Publishing and read both the good, bad, and the ugly. Imagine my surprise when I went to a National chain book store and saw a book published by Tate Publishing. It was a children's book placed at the front of the store. I thought Tate Publishing did not get books into the book stores.

Sparkle
www.dobbinsdreamstories.com

[Gravity]

Many authors are proactive in getting copies of their book into a local chain store, just as many of those local chain managers are open to showcasing local authors (they're allowed some discretionary budget dollars for this). But don't conflate that with the chain similarly putting copies of that book in all the B&Ns across the country. It doesn't happen.

[Sparkle]

Hi,

This was a Walden's Book Store...not a local store.

Sparkle
www.dobbinsdreamstories.com

[Gravity]

Okay, then. A Walden bookstore manager (or B&N, or Borders, or whatever) is allowed some discretionary funds to put whatever books in his or her store he or she likes to stock.

The key word is discretionary.

Some managers choose use those dollars to purchase stock, usually on consignment, from a local author. That does NOT translate into every Walden in the country buying copies of that same book to sell. In other words, vanity houses are simply not set up for national distribution of their wares; it's not their business model. Clearer?

[brianm]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Hi,

This was a Walden's Book Store...not a local store.

Sparkle
www.dobbinsdreamstories.com

A bookstore is local when it is located in the author's locale regardless of whether the store is a chain or an independent.

Drive twenty-five miles away from that bookstore and it is doubtful that book will be found in the next Walden's. Further than twenty-five miles and I guarantee the book will not be on any bookstore shelf.

[Sparkle]

Hi,

The next time I am there I will check it out and see if it is a local author. I will let you people know.

Sparkle
www.dobbinsdreamstories.com

[Sheryl Nantus]

Originally Posted by Gravity

Okay, then. A Walden bookstore manager (or B&N, or Borders, or whatever) is allowed some discretionary funds to put whatever books in his or her store he or she likes to stock.

The key word is discretionary.

Some managers choose use those dollars to purchase stock, usually on consignment, from a local author. That does NOT translate into every Walden in the country buying copies of that same book to sell. In other words, vanity houses are simply not set up for national distribution of their wares; it's not their business model. Clearer?

true.

I can name on one hand the number of stores carrying actual copies of my book on their shelves. That's because I contacted them personally and asked/begged for them to do so. I've done booksignings there and usually shop there as well, so there's a connection there. I've yet to hear of any other store in the world with my book on their shelves.

without a distributor (and NO, Ingram's and Baker & Taylor don't count!) a small press book is unlikely to be found anywhere that the author didn't personally arrange for it to be. As in, say... a bookstore.

[VoiceOfReason]

This is a long post, but hopefully it will put a factual and well based end to this already 13 page forum.

This forum is kind of painful to read. After reading most of this forum I finally decided to go all out and get the full scoop. I looked through consumer reports about Tate Publishing. Almost all of them either directly quoted the Tate Publishing Website or warned that it was a scam. Because of this I looked into Tate Publishing even further. They boast a small 3.5% acceptance rate, yet I have only been able to find 1 reference of anyone actually being rejected, and that person was just Tate Publishing in disguise. I have noticed that several forums Tate Publishing has come on as a "regular author" who found them to be "very nice" and a lot of other buzz words like that. That alone should say something about their honesty as they are proclaiming to be "a good Christian Publisher."

One person on this mentioned that people apposed to Tate just don't understand the concept of co investment. As far as that goes, I researched all the expenses that a publisher could possibly spend advertising a book, and came no where near the $20,000 - $30,000 range that they promised to spend on the book.

When I contacted a couple of anti-spam organizations, they all said the same thing. Tate Publishing is a Scam. One of them even had a few authors who contacted them saying that they did not get the $4000 "co investment" back when when they sold their 5000 copies. Another one took the time to go through their website and point out everything that was a red flag saying possible scammer. All the good Christian stuff which I have already found to be blatantly false, as well as taking the time to speak to you personally are just ways where they force you to sign it over. They don't make you give up your manuscript but they do make you give up more than any other publisher possibly would.

As it turns out, they do exactly as they say. They publish the book and market it as normal, but that is as far as they go. You don't get your $4000 "co investment" back. They probably use $500 of it to publish and advertise your book, and the rest goes into their pay checks. Ask any expert in the field and they will say (and I quote this from one of the many other forums where Tate Publishing is also disputed) "Don't walk, run away, as fast as you can."

I usually try to avoid a biased opinion as I just stay with the facts, but this time the facts them selves very much point to it being a scam. I am sorry for those of you who have gone with Tate Publishing, and no doubt Tate Publishing will respond to this with another post from a phony author, but those of you who have not signed up with Tate, DONT. Best of luck out there to all of you who are trying to publish a book, I know from experience that it is an important event and I hope a real publisher absolutely loves your books and you sell more than your wildest dreams thought possible.

Now it is time for Tate Publishing to reply with a phony author again

[victoriastrauss]

Originally Posted by Dertie Bertie

Ann and Victoria...you should start a branch at Writer Beware called Musician Beware. Tate now has a music label too.

Yes, we've seen that. It's called Tate Music Group. The fee is the same as for the publisher (and, as with the publisher, it's not mentioned or revealed on the website), as is much of the verbiage. The music industry is not my area of expertise, but I'm pretty sure that you don't pay recording companies upfront, any more than you do book publishers.

Here's the link: http://www.tatemusicgroup.com/

- Victoria

[victoriastrauss]

Thanks, that's exactly what I thought. Good to know also about the POD equivalent for musicians.

Guess the bottom line is the same: self-publish (or self-produce) if you must, but beware of vanity deals.

- Victoria