Tate Publishing

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Haray72

Just one final remark about why I went with Tate. I will retain ownership of my property--5 years worth of work is worth $4,000 to me.

Haray, what rights do you think you give up to commercial publishers? It sounds like you're confusing work-for-hire with what you sell to commercial publishers when they purchase your book. You don't typically give up movie rights, for instance.

[MadScientistMatt]

It only takes money to make money if you are running a business. If you are an employee, what it takes to make money is time. You wouldn't pay an employer to get a job, would you?

[robeiae]

*sniff...snnniff*

Hmmm....

:horse:

Rob

[James D. Macdonald]

Originally Posted by Haray72

Since you fired the first shot, let me respond politely by asking if you believe in the concept that you have to spend money to make money?

And I do ... paper, ink, postage, whatever value the time I spend sitting in front of this keyboard might be worth.

Burger King doesn't pay me to take burgers off their hands. In the same way, I don't pay publishers to take my intellectual property.

In marketing, you have to know who your customer is, and what they are interested in buying. I've made the investment in a niche genre that will best enable me to reach my customers. Again, this a basic marketing concept.

Okay, who are your customers? How will you reach them?

I can send press releases all over the world, make a million phone calls to "potential" customers and it will not make a significant difference if I am not talking to someone that likes Christian fiction. Small christian bookstores have been handed their hats thanks to Walmart, and the Christian writers of the world have been the first to see the benefits. But although the superstores stock everything and anything, you still have to target a very specific audience, and means finding a small press publisher that specializes in that field. If you don't follow this thinking, that's fine with me.

I have to confess that I didn't follow that thinking at all. Specifically, what does "Small christian bookstores have been handed their hats thanks to Walmart, and the Christian writers of the world have been the first to see the benefits" mean?

Further, you also have to know what your readers could care less about, such as who is the publisher of the attractive book they hold in their hands as they stand in the bookstore.

Well, maybe. The question that begs is will they in fact find your book in a bookstore?

Just one final remark about why I went with Tate. I will retain ownership of my property--5 years worth of work is worth $4,000 to me. With a traditional you've just coughed up your seed corn. George Lucas can tell you a thing or two about the importance of retaining rights!

Presumably Tate is taking the right to publish your work in book form? How is that different from what any other publisher would take?

My book also has potential to be made into a movie (again, pie in the sky but I hold all the rights, baby.) Maybe this should have been a discussion about the pros and cons of retaining rights to one's work rather than potential sales. Thanks for your insight.

Derivative and secondary rights are a whole 'nother discussion. There's no reason you wouldn't retain dramatic rights to your work with any other publisher. That's all negotiable.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Haray72

Since you fired the first shot, let me respond politely by asking if you believe in the concept that you have to spend money to make money?

Do I believe that it's wise to pay $4000 for something I could have gotten for free? No. I think that's foolish. It's bad business sense, if nothing else.

In marketing, you have to know who your customer is, and what they are interested in buying. I've made the investment in a niche genre that will best enable me to reach my customers. Again, this a basic marketing concept.

You also need to know what you are. In this case, you're the customer, not your potential readers. Tate's webpage makes it abundantly clear that they're most interested in selling their concepts to authors, not to readers. You've bought their service - they haven't bought into you as a writer. That's regardless of how good they may be at their job.

you still have to target a very specific audience, and means finding a small press publisher that specializes in that field. If you don't follow this thinking, that's fine with me.

I don't think anyone here has criticised small presses. But small presses don't ask you for $4000 up front either.

Further, you also have to know what your readers could care less about, such as who is the publisher of the attractive book they hold in their hands as they stand in the bookstore.

You imply that they'll be able to hold said attractive book in the bookstore. Will this actually be the case? There's nothing wrong with small press. I won't touch the pointless baseball metaphor there because it's irrelevant. Will Tate be doing widescale distribution of your book, getting it on shelves in actual bookstores? Do their books have a return policy to make them more approachable to stores, and realistic prices?

Never mind ownership of your property. Are they geared up to sell your book. That's the number one question you should be asking yourself - and more importantly, asking them.

Just one final remark about why I went with Tate. I will retain ownership of my property--5 years worth of work is worth $4,000 to me. With a traditional you've just coughed up your seed corn. George Lucas can tell you a thing or two about the importance of retaining rights!

You imply that signing with a traditional publisher automatically means giving up all your subsidiary rights. You're incorrectly assuming a pure work-for-hire situation, rather than a negotiated contract.

[Haray72]

Good point, let's move on. It appears we all have different views on what the recipe for success is. I bow to all published authors with repectable sales, whatever that is.

[Haray72]

I'm under the impression that Tate does in fact stock the books in bookstores and are fully returnable, refundable, etc. Spring Arbor is their distributor, but that's all I know.

Their royalties are 40% from their site and I believe 15% from outside sources.
I retain all rights to my work--I was under the impression that most publishers seek these out right away, especially if they think you'll sell. Apparently there is more to this than I understand.

Thanks for all your information, criticism and feedback. I'm certainly the wiser for it.

Genuinely,
Haray S.

[LloydBrown]

Originally Posted by Haray72

I retain all rights to my work--I was under the impression that most publishers seek these out right away, especially if they think you'll sell. Apparently there is more to this than I understand.

It's understandable. I wonder, though, was that a misunderstanding you began the process with, or did it originate during a phone call with Tate?

[CaoPaux]

FWIW, an inventory search at my local Borders stores indicates that Tate books are only available to order. One's listed at $20 for 175 pages. :faint:

[James D. Macdonald]

Not too surprising if they're aiming for the Christian bookstore market. The question is whether they get store placement in Christian bookstores.

[Cathy C]

Now, see, there's a TERRIFIC idea, Caopaux Anytime you've got ANY question about whether you should sign with any publisher, take a few minutes to visit their website, go to the "bookstore" section, write down three random titles that catch your eye, along with the author and ISBN (if listed.) Then call three major bookchains in the nearest major city to you (yeah, this might involve some long distances charges -- which are CHEAP by comparison!) Ask if they have the book IN STOCK. If they have to order it, ask if it's in their WAREHOUSE. It's two different kinds of ordering, you see. One is "we don't have enough shelf space, so we have everything at our regional warehouse and can have it here tomorrow," versus "we have to order it from the publisher/printer because NONE of our stores has it."


If all three have it in stock or in their warehouse, it's a good bet that they're a good publisher! After all, selling books is sort of their business!

Here are some of the primary chain stores:

Barnes & Noble
Borders/B Dalton/Brentano's
Waldenbooks
Hastings
Booksamillion

Try a few different publishers if the calls are local. It's a little bit of shoe leather for a whole lot of peace of mind!

[Birol]

Haray, through the some research and a well-placed grapevine, it seems the last time you showed up in any writing forum it was to innocently say that you had "stumbled upon a wonderfully well-written Christian book on a place called Lulu.com or something like that". (Don't worry, we're familiar with Lulu.com here and it is well-respected for the services it provides.) All of your posts at that time said basically the same thing, the majority of them were hit-and-run posts, meaning you stopped by the forum, made your pitch, and then didn't stick around. Almost all of your posts on these other forums were worded nearly identically. Meaning it smacked of a spam campaign to get the word out about your book.

So, what's your game this time? To get the word out about your latest book? If it's so good, why don't you try to go with a traditional publisher? Why do you have to resort to these tactics?

Our regulars are well-versed in countering dubious claims made by individuals such as yourself in order to protect up-and-coming writers, but you should know, we don't appreciate arguments created just for publicizing one's work here. If you have a book to plug, post in the announcement section of this board. Otherwise....

Victoria, Jim, Dave, et al, you may wish to let this one go. It'll quickly become like beating a dead horse if the information I've located and my instincts are accurate.

[Haray72]

Yes, at the time I was indeed testing the waters for interest in the market, especially Christian fiction. A friend of mine was writing a book as well and I wanted to know what folks thought of the genre, and what they would think of ebooks in general. I tried to generate some discussion about it. If this is unacceptable "hit and run" tactics as you describe, you'll have to excuse me but it takes a little while to learn the complexities of the literary e-world.

My reasons for being here are simple. I wanted to know what folks think of Tate Publishing, as I obviously have committed time and money to them. My posts are about what I have learned and understand to be true about them. Most of your responses have been clear and helpful, others just anti-small press.

I have nothing to hide, detective. By the way, the high road is in the other direction.

Genuinely
Haray S.

[Trapped in amber]

No one attacked small presses in this thread. Just the view that vanity publishing is a good idea if you're looking for what a commercial publisher will provide. Vanity publishers make their money from authors, commercial publishers (even small ones) make their money from readers.

Still, I wish you every success with your book.

[Gravity]

[QUOTE= Vanity publishers make their money from authors, commercial publishers (even small ones) make their money from readers.

__________________________________________________ _____

That's true, Haray. To wit: my first Christian novel was printed by PublishAmerica. In my own own defense, it was in late 2001, PA had almost no presence yet on the Internet (and hence very little info was available on them), and their contract was damnably clever in its weasel-words. In short, I got taken, and my book now is as dead as a hammer ("How dead?" the fellow in the back inquires? I'm glad you asked, sir. My PA book has sold eight copies this year. Eight. As in two less than ten). That's what short discounts, no returnabilty, and no sales force nets a vanity-published fiction author: [i]bupkis.[/i]

Now,fast forward three years. In 2004, my next book was published commericially by one of the big five CBA houses (Cook/RiverOak). The difference is amazing. I got a nice advance, it's selling well (in the stores!), the sequel will be out in October, and I'm contracted for another one,which I'm presently finishing up (out next fall).

All I'm saying is, if a newbie like me can do it,anyone can.

John

[Jnaxyc]

Knowing full well that Birol may snatch back that welcome mat if someone persists in beating a poor dead horse ...
... someone rolls up a newspaper and contemplates swatting someone, or something, instead.

Swat!

Tate offers services for a fee. They charge four thousand dollars for services that can be rendered for much less expense if an author wanted to pay to have a book published.


Evidence available suggests they do not "pour marketing resources" into a book. I chose 20 books already in print at random from their list. (MANY of their books are not yet "in print." Although the stated print date for many has already passed by months, and you can find the books by searching specifically with title and author name on sites like Barnes and Noble and Amazon, both B & N and Amazon note the books are not yet available)

I checked the sales rank and reviews. 16 of the 20 had no sales rank. Only 2 of the 20 had any reviews at all (posted by "readers"), and only 2 of the 20 had a book description, and in both cases it was a short, single sentence that did nothing to pique interest. Simply saying "inspirational poetry" ain't gonna convince me to buy a book. Evidently, Tate frequently can't be bothered to give a description of the book. The only way readers are going to find these puppies and possibly buy them is if they're told to do a highly specific key word search and if they already know what the books are about.

I then googled the 20 books using title and author last name. The highest number of hits I found was 89 -- a significant number of these hits were the Tate website itself. The lowest number of hits I found was 9, for a book that had been released almost a year before. 6 of the 9 were Tate. In most cases, the hits numbered in the mid-20s, and in those cases, I found no press releases, book signing notices for bookstores, publicity pitches, etc. In one of the higher hit tallies, I did find one link announcing a book signing at a local church, and another hit from a church newsletter where the author herself submitted to the newsletter notice of her book and requested that parishoners pray for its sales.

I then went to 5 small presses that don't charge the upfront fees for services that Tate does. I deliberately chose presses with much smaller lists and less marketable niches than the Christian market. I picked 4 books already in print at random from each press and went through the same process.

14 of the 20 had sales ranks. All 20 had reviews posted by readers, and useful book descriptions from the publishers. 12 had excerpts of reviews published by outside sources such as newspapers, magazines, journals, etc.

Googling the books resulted in a high number of 892 hits and a low number, for a book released two months ago, of 50. All of the books googled had press releases, hits advertising book signings in bookstores, publicity pitches, and 17 had at least one review in a newspaper, magazine, journal etc.

Tate does not appear to be actively marketing the books on its list to the general populace.

Okay, how about the Christian populace? I checked four major online outlets for Christian books. I only found 4 of the 20 titles listed, and not on all the outlets. None of the 4 had a book description -- not even a one-liner, or book reviews of any kind.

The small presses that don't charge an author $4,000 to print a book seem to be doing much better marketing and, with the exception of the 40% royalties return on sales*, offering the same, if not more services.

* Please note: Tate only gives that 40% on sales that originate from Tate's own website/catalogue. If it's not bought directly from Tate, the author ain't getting 40%.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Haray72

I have nothing to hide, detective. By the way, the high road is in the other direction.

*eyebrows up* That's quite a statement from someone who created false identities to shill his own book, and is now claiming innocent inquisitive motivation for posting here. It's clear from your posts that you didn't come to ask questions or "test the waters," but to explain what a brilliant decision you made in going with Tate.

People make mistakes. We all know that. Trying to cast us as villians because you're embarrassed just digs you in deeper.

[Haray72]

You've went WAY too far here.

In the future I would hope you would pause before making such slanderous comments. Good day.

[Jaws]

I'm going to say this once, and once only.

A "subsidy publisher" is a vanity press. The only difference is the (unverified and unverifiable) claim that the publisher is putting capital in at a subsidy publisher.

"Subsidy publisher" sounds nicer; so does "sanitation engineer." That does not change the fact that the latter is the guy who picks up the garbage (which is not intended to imply that all books from vanity presses are necessarily garbage). But:

• The legal title to the books as they come off the press is in the publisher, not the author, and
• The guaranteed capital flow at the moment the first book comes off the press is away from the author, not toward the author

So, no matter what one calls it—"vanity press," "POD publishing partner," "subsidy publisher," "cooperative publisher"—in substance it's a vanity press.

[James D. Macdonald]

Please, let's not confuse vanity publishing, small-press publishing, and self-publishing.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Haray72

In the future I would hope you would pause before making such slanderous comments.

You may find it useful to learn what "slander" is, and how it differs from both "libel" and "things I don't like hearing."

[Birol]

Originally Posted by Jnaxyc

Knowing full well that Birol may snatch back that welcome mat if someone persists in beating a poor dead horse ...
... someone rolls up a newspaper and contemplates swatting someone, or something, instead.

Nah. No worries. It's your time to do with as you choose. My only complaint with your whoppin' two posts is typing your userid in order to respond to you.

[Birol]

Originally Posted by Haray72

You've went WAY too far here.

In the future I would hope you would pause before making such slanderous comments. Good day.

Interesting overreaction to Aconite's comments.

[Haray72]

You two need to back off! You don't know anything about me at all.

You've accused me of something that has nothing to do with this forum. I'm infuriated that you've painted my intentions in such a negative light. I've signed with Tate, but never have I professed that I was making a "brilliant" move. Have you even read my posts? They are harmless! That was a low blow and I'll wait for your apology!

Secondly, it's none of your business what I've posted before and where and what my motives were. Why the heck would I keep defending myself so vehemently if I wasn't an honest person? You would overreact too if you were getting roasted on a forum! (At least I would hope.)

Yeah, I'm WAY passed embarrassed. What's slander? Stop insulting my intelligence. Pick up your hammer and shield and keep protecting the new authors of the world from big bad me. Well done hero.

[Richard]

Slander is spoken, libel is written.