Tate Publishing

[AC Crispin]

Congratulations on the book and the first sale, Alice!

Wishing you lots of sales!

-Ann C. Crispin
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Price of Freedom
Disney Editions
May 17, 2011

[ResearchGuy]

Originally Posted by herdon

. . .Some authors elect to 'invest in themselves' by creating a website, doing their own mini-book tours, etc. That's just smart business.

Brenda Novak and John Lescroart are good examples.

--Ken

[callalily61]

*hugs* Thank you, Ann!

[Queen of Swords]

Originally Posted by Chris P

Or did you have to "invest" in your first titles to prove to the "big guys" you were worth their investment?

Well, I'm with a small press/e-publisher rather than the "big guys", so here's how much I had to pay for my first book to be published. Bear in mind that this sum includes editing, layout, design, cover art, distribution and marketing :

$ 0.00

Self-promotion has cost me less than a hundred dollars - a domain name, flyers, candy to pass out during class, postage for giveaways (the books were my free author's copies). My royalties have been way more than that, so I'm still comfortably in the black.

[Adobedragon]

Originally Posted by callalily61

The book in my sig is my debut. My publisher decided I was worth their investment.

Congratulations!

And swerving back on topic. 4K? Wow! I mean, I guess this is typical for vanity pubs, but, "Wow!"

I just don't have that kind of money and if I did, it would go to paying for "needful things" like new stucco and roofing for my little casita. Even in this economy, my house is a better investment.

Mileage may vary and all that. I wish Jennifer good luck.

[PVish]

Originally Posted by Queen of Swords

Well, I'm with a small press/e-publisher rather than the "big guys", so here's how much I had to pay for my first book to be published. Bear in mind that this sum includes editing, layout, design, cover art, distribution and marketing :

$ 0.00

Self-promotion has cost me less than a hundred dollars - a domain name, flyers, candy to pass out during class, postage for giveaways (the books were my free author's copies). My royalties have been way more than that, so I'm still comfortably in the black.

I'm also with a small press. For my first book, I received from the publisher a big box of free copies, a couple thousand bookmarks, and a big poster. Publisher mailed out a lot of cards and I was invited to a few neat places. I've gotten two royalty checks from that book.

Like QoS, the cost to me was $0.00. My expense was getting my domain name and website.

My second book came out a few weeks ago from the same publisher. I received a bigger box of free books this go-round. The Barnes & Noble 40 miles from me has already sold out of their first order and ordered more. They invited me (I didn't call them) to do a signing there in May. The publisher will send out cards and start the official promos in May. Again, my cost=$0.00.

I have, in the past, vanity-published some small niche books before. I didn't pay anything remotely close to how much Tate charges, though.

[Unimportant]

Originally Posted by JenniferPereyra

To be honest, at the end of the day, I don't really care where Dr. Tate got his PhD from. It could be from the school of hard knocks or it could be some honorary degree given to him. I don't know and to me, that is besides the point.

Do you feel that way about your physician, or dentist, or other professional whom you pay thousands of dollars for their services?

If Dr Tate is calling himself Dr Tate on his publishing website, then he is implying his doctoral degree is related to his business. And so yes, I want to know where, when, and how he got his degree.

Originally Posted by JenniferPereyra

One final question...am I correct to assume that none of you have ever paid a dime out of your pockets (beyond the necessary writing tools) for illustrations, editing, layout design, marketing, or publicists? I'm just curious.

Yes, that is correct. I did not pay a dime. The small press I published with paid for art, editing, layout, marketing, printing, distribution, etc, as well as my box of author's copies and the copies they sent to reviewers/awards panels. The only cheques I signed were the royalty cheques: I signed on the back before I cashed them. That is Yog's Law.

I tried commenting on Tate's blog, but the comment has not been posted. I asked Dr Tate to explain his statement that Sheila Kelly received a $50,000 advance (minus agent's fee of $7500, so $42,500) from her (NY) publisher for one book. She sold enough copies in the first two quarters of the book's release to earn out her advance, and in future will start receiving royalty cheques. He contrasts this with an unnamed Tate author, who has made a total of $75,000 off three books -- or $25,000 per book. And, somehow, he claims that Tate authors earn more than this NY author: "Authors with other publishers pay plenty, and don’t have it nearly as well as our authors do."

His doctorate clearly isn't in mathematics. I can't imagine any who would turn down a $50,000 advance and royalty cheques a few years later on one book with zero outlay to the publisher on the author's part, and instead prefer to get $25,000 per book years after publication and a massive outlay to the publisher on the author's part.

[Unimportant]

Slightly off topic, but I'm curious: on the "Meet the Staff" page on the Tate website, they show pics of all the staff involved in the various aspects of the business. 70 men, 76 women, often in gendered jobs (e.g., of 25 manufacturing facility and music production staff, 25 are men; of 19 support and design staff, 15 are women). But what amazes me is that out of nearly 150 staff, only 4 appear to be people of colour. All of the 13 executive staff appear to be Caucasian. Is this a facet of the company being located in Oklahoma?

[herdon]

I would hold any breaths for Tate to give the thumbs up to comments on their blog unless they are complimentary (or at least neutral) of Tate. The blog is, after all, one of their marketing tools.

Of coursed, I'd say that the blog and the entries in the blog should be enough for most authors to be warned far away from the company. Real publishers don't need to spend time and energy on their blog defending their ability to publish. The books they have in bookstores does that for them.

[mac]

Tate's desire for my work waned when I didn't have and wouldn't charge the 4,000.

It's all good though. If I'm meant to be a published author it will happen, and if not then there will be something else that needs me.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Originally Posted by Unimportant

Slightly off topic, but I'm curious: on the "Meet the Staff" page on the Tate website, they show pics of all the staff involved in the various aspects of the business. 70 men, 76 women, often in gendered jobs (e.g., of 25 manufacturing facility and music production staff, 25 are men; of 19 support and design staff, 15 are women). But what amazes me is that out of nearly 150 staff, only 4 appear to be people of colour. All of the 13 executive staff appear to be Caucasian. Is this a facet of the company being located in Oklahoma?

According to US Government Census figures, Oklahoma's population consists of:

White persons: 78.0%
Black persons: 8.1%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons: 8.0%
Asian persons: 1.7%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander: 0.1%
Persons reporting two or more races: 4.1%
Hispanic or Latino origin: 8.2%

[Unimportant]

Thanks for that, OFG. It looks, then, like Tate's staff are a bit skewed when it comes to ethnicity.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's time for a line-by-line on this pernicious twaddle:

Sunday, April 3, 2011

TATE PUBLISHING AND THE FACTS ABOUT "YOG'S LAW"

Over at the Tate blog, http://tatepublishingacquisitions.bl...bout-yogs.html

Followers,

A few years ago an individual created out of thin air a concept he called "Yog's Law." I have no idea who "Yog" is or what planet he may be from

Let me Google that for you....

Not out of thin air, Doctor Dick. From experience and observation. Backed by my reputation as a writer and as a writer's advocate. It must seem strange to you that professional writers agree, quote it, and pass it on.

The ones who screech and holler are the bottom-feeders. The ones whose business plan consists of convincing writers to subsidize them, rather than the other way around.

but just like Superman there is "kryptonite" in this concept and that "kryptonite" is the facts.

Facts! Waiting for 'em!

His over-simplistic “Money always flows to the writer” is his central argument.

Yes, it's simple. Yes, it's true. Unfortunately, it puts a torpedo into Tate's business plan, amidships at the waterline, so he's going to have to put up a smokescreen as he tries to make his getaway, heading for the horizon at top speed with his lights off, making random course changes to confuse the folks who are trying to track him. Fortunately, we can see through his obfuscation.

The problem with that concept is that he makes it sound like a movie script. Write a book, ask mom how good she thinks it is, send it to a publisher, they take it and make you a millionaire while you sit at home and watch TV.

This is made up out of whole cloth.

Mom isn't mentioned. Millionaires aren't mentioned. The amount of money, the speed of the money, none of that is mentioned. What is mentioned is the direction of the money's flow. That's what Doctor Dick is trying to distract you from.

Of course writers should make money for their work, but the premise that they will never have to spend money if they publish, promote or market their books is incredibly naïve.

The word you're groping for is "savvy."

I am close friends with several New York literary agents.

Really? Who? Do any of those agents send their clients to you? If so, I can say that those agents are most likely fee-charging incompetents.

I was speaking with one last week who has been in that business for decades. She was informing me of the high profile clients she represents who have to take their money to promote and buy their own books. She said that the publishers she works with are the bank and that they see their authors as having to do the work and are small businesses.

Buy their own books? Again, really? Who? Are you sure she didn't say that the publishers she works with are the shearers and that they see their authors as the sheep?

At Tate Publishing we create for every first-time author an incredible opportunity to succeed. The support they get is over-the-top excellent and the few authors we sign out of the tens of thousands of unsolicited manuscripts we receive each year get the best product and support in the industry.

And they ought to... they pay enough. Four thousand bucks, isn't it?

An "opportunity." The only sure thing is that they start out in the hole. But if your "product and support" is so excellent, why do so few of them succeed?

I have interviewed authors with other publishers for my own interest and we have a staff member in our marketing division who has shared some of his work and research with me as well. Here is a brief synopsis of their experience with those publishers:

Why don't you interview me, Doctor Dick?

Suzy Spencer: NYT bestselling author. In Suzy’s words: “I’ve had four books published. Of those four, I’ve had little marketing support from my publishers. I’ve never been allowed any contact with the sales teams, though I understand some publishers encourage such. As for public relations support, for my first book Wasted, which became a New York Times bestseller, I believe my publisher sent out a few review copies. By that I mean I provided names and addresses of friends in the media and my publisher mailed them copies of the book and, from what I understand, a note that said here’s a book by Suzy Spencer. There was no publicity packet included. No sales pitch of what the book was about or why they would be interested in it.” Suzy herself hired a publicist and mailed out push cards.

Most of the support that publishers give to authors is invisible to the authors: Catalog listing, advertising in trade magazines, sales-force visits, review copies to major venues. You can find authors who falsely believe that there was no publicity and marketing at all. But that doesn't change the fact that commercial publishers are in business to sell books to customers, rather than sell services to authors.

"I’ve never been allowed any contact with the sales teams, though I understand some publishers encourage such," Suzy says. In my experience, most publishers encourage such. (I see that she was published by St. Martin's. I've been published by a branch of St. Martin's, and my experience was far different from hers.)

Suzy hired a publicist and sent out push cards... good for her, but probably wasted money.

Doctor Dick left out a few words when he quoted Suzy, although he put the entire thing in quote marks and didn't use ellipses. The original says:

1. How much help did your publisher give you in the marketing of your book?
I’ve had four books published. Of those four, I’ve had little marketing support from my publishers. Now let me clarify. When I say "marketing," I’m referring specifically to public relations. I’m not referring to sales and distribution support. I’ve never been allowed any contact with the sales teams, though I understand some publishers encourage such.

"Now let me clarify. When I say 'marketing,' I’m referring specifically to public relations. I’m not referring to sales and distribution support."

Why was it important for Doctor Dick to leave that out?

Tom Llewellyn: Tom stated that his book The Tilting House sold about 8,000 copies. His marketing support, in his words: “Not as much as I expected (he says, while hoping he sounds grateful to be published at all). They sent out promotional copies, distributed the book in their catalog, blogged about it and sent me a whole bunch of customized bookmarks. A very talented designer friend of mine built a cool website (www.thetiltinghouse.com) and created a book trailer you can see there as well. I setup and completed interviews in local newspapers. I held a pretty massive book launch party—about which the publisher’s rep said it was the biggest launch party she’d ever seen. I’ve done a whole bunch of author talks at local schools and still continue to do them. And I’ve done a whole bunch of blog interviews—kind of like this one.” Tom paid for his own marketing, the construction of his web site and his own book launch party. By the way, after the interview, discontinued the imprint, and Tom has no publisher at all.

So? The check cleared, didn't it? What he decided to do with the cash in his pocket was up to him.

Let's say that he got a typical first-book advance, $5,000. Let's say that, purely because he felt like it, he spent $4,000 on publicity (the excuse that Tate is using right now for charging authors money up front). That would still leave him a thousand dollars to spend any way he wanted: Beer, potato chips, slot cars, or whatever made his heart beat faster.

Are you trying to say that Random House went out of business, Dick? Tom Llewellyn was published by Tricycle Press, which is part of the Crown Publishing Group, which is owned by Random House, which is in turn owned by Bertelsmann AG.

His book, The Tilting House, is currently in print and on sale.

Dr. Dick alters that interview with Tom just a bit, although he keeps it inside of quote marks, without using ellipses.

Here's how that bit of the original read:

How much help did your publisher give you in the marketing of your book?


Not as much as I expected (he says, while hoping he sounds grateful to be published at all). They sent out promotional copies, distributed the book in their catalog, blogged about it and sent me a whole bunch of customized bookmarks. They might have done a lot of other important activities as well.


Did you hire a publicist, or did you work on marketing and promotion on your own? If you hired a publicist, what types of things did they do for you?


I did not hire a publicist. Should I have?

"They might have done a lot of other important activities as well." I'm certain they did. Tom doesn't know what-all they did. They didn't charge him for it, either.

And he didn't hire a publicist.

A word of advice for his web designer: An all-Flash site is a bad idea. The search engines can't index it.

My favorite: Sheila Kelly, NYT bestselling author of Twilight Fall. You can see a copy of one of her royalty statements here: http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...Statement1.jpg Sheila was actually paid an advance of $50,000 for her book. She did not receive a third of that until the book was published. Her agent got $7,500 of the advance. Uncle Sam took $15,000 in taxes. After her other expenses, she actually received $26,000 of her $50,000 advance. Her net earnings from her royalty statement in the link are about $27,000, after returns and holdbacks. Because her publisher has not yet recouped the advance they kept their share, so her net earnings from this royalty statement were, wait for it, $0. That’s right, she sold $46,000 worth of books the quarter she became a NYT bestseller and didn’t receive any of it. Her credited earnings on her next royalty statement were about $2,500, which her publisher also kept to repay her advance.

Oh my goodness! Whatever Doctor Dick has his degree in, it probably didn't have a math component. And here's where Doctor Dick stops merely trying to confuse you and stoops to outright lying.

An advance, Dick, is an advance against royalties. Is this too hard a concept for you? The author is guaranteed a base level of sales by the publisher, but until the publisher manages to sell that many, the author doesn't get additional royalties.

That $26,000 is $30,000 more than your standard Tate author gets. And it's in her bank account, ready to pay the mortgage and buy groceries.

"That’s right, she sold $46,000 worth of books the quarter she became a NYT bestseller and didn’t receive any of it. "

No, Doctor Dick. She received all of it. She'd already received every penny, and she'd already cashed the check.

In Sheila’s words: “My income per book always reminds me of how tough it is to make at living at this gig, especially for writers who only produce one book per year. If I did the same, and my one book performed as well as TF, and my family of four were solely dependent on my income, my net would be only around $2500.00 over the income level considered to be the U.S. poverty threshold (based on 2008 figures.) Yep, we’d almost qualify for food stamps.” To date, she has made about $24,000 off Twilight Fall, mainly from her advance. She didn’t expect to see any actual royalties from her book for another 1-2 years.

No one said this is an easy gig. And you know something? Yog's law doesn't say it's easy. Yog's Law doesn't say you can retire on one book. Yog's Law doesn't say you can support your family with your pen.

Yog's Law says that the money flows toward the author.

Simple. Easy to remember. Completely true (if you don't want to be scammed). But poison for Doctor Dick's bottom line.

In contrast, one of our authors, who is not a NYT bestselling author, has made at least $75,000 off the sales of her three titles with us, and that all went into her pocket.

That tale of yours should come with a little asterisk to a fine-print line that says "Results not typical" like you see on weight-loss products that they advertise on television.

Who is this author? Didn't that author have to pay for all the same publicity and so forth and so on that you're mentioning as a drawback for commercially published authors? (Even though you and I both know that publishers routinely publicize and market their books in effective ways, at no cost to the author.) And didn't this guy pay taxes? You subtracted taxes from Sheila's advance in order to show that she didn't get all that much money. That's dishonest, Dick.

And let's compare. Three books at $25K each (before taxes) somewhere down the line, or one book at $26,000 (after taxes) in hand up front. Which one made out better?

It's good that you mention your author isn't a New York Times best-seller. Isn't it true that, despite the fact that the Times publishes multiple best-seller lists every week, no Tate book has ever been listed?

Like other vanity publishers, Doctor Dick wants us to believe that commercial publishers will spend tens of thousands of dollars to acquire, edit, and print books, then do nothing whatever to sell those books in order to recoup their investment. That doesn't make a lick of sense, but that's the core of their argument.

Money flows to the author?

Indeed it does, unless you've hooked up with a scum-sucking, bottom-feeding vanity press. The sort of press that has an interest in trying (however unsuccessfully) to discredit Yog's Law.

Authors with other publishers pay plenty, and don’t have it nearly as well as our authors do.

Let's see: First author advance of $5,000 to the author, vs. first author payment of $4,000 from the author. Tell me again how the author who got paid is worse off than the one who did the paying?

For first novels:

"The median advance is $5000."

"Average advance: $5,920"

Yet more:
First Novel Survey Results

Even more on advances, with real numbers, and the names of the publishers: Show Me the Money

Sure, J.K. Rowling and James Patterson are multi-millionaires, but they have each cranked out several books, have movie deals, and have to sell an incredible volume of books.

And ... none of them paid to be published.

They are in the extreme minority, of which I am certain Mr. Yog’s Law is not a member.

You're right, Dick! I'm not J. K. Rowling nor am I James Patterson. I'm just a shaggy-ass midlist writer. But I've paid off my mortgage, put two kids through college, have another two in college right now, and I've done it by writing. Writing for publishers who paid me in advance. Who sold books to readers.

I'm not alone. Thousands and thousands of other writers have done the same in the past, are doing the same today, and will do the same tomorrow. Without laying out a dime of their own. This isn't new or radical. It's the way publishing works.

Once again, say it loud and believe it: Money flows toward the author.

Any publisher or agent who says different is trying to line his pocket at your expense.

Posted by Dr. Richard Tate at 10:29 AM

Say, Doctor Dick, as long as I have you here, where did you get your PhD? What university? What year? What subject? Somehow Google doesn't give me that answer.

I'm sure you can clear it up. I don't want anyone to think you're less-than-honest.

[James D. Macdonald]

Please don't think that I'm dogging Tate, or that I even spend a lot of time thinking about them. This is the first time I've ever visited their blog, and that's the only posting there I've read.

It's just that an anonymous thing that calls itself/herself/himself "The Write Agenda" came to my attention, and that made me curious so I Googled on "Yog's Law." And there was Doctor Dick's screed and recently posted.

It makes me wonder; why all the hate on for Yog's Law right now? Is electronic self-publishing taking enough authors away from the vanities that they have to lash out to keep what's left?

[CaoPaux]

Heh. The launch of Lulu was the warning shot across the bow. With the likes of CreateSpace and Smashwords, the number of zero-upfront options becomes a broadside.

[James D. Macdonald]

True self-publishing doesn't violate Yog's Law.

It's easy to do self-publishing badly, and it's difficult to do well (which is why you find self-publishers reckoning "success" as "selling to a commercial press"), but it doesn't violate Yog's Law. See discussion here.

[mac]

I think anyone with a Doctorate would be happy to show proof. It takes a lot of work to get a Ph.D. and I would think that with all the work that went into it that I would write in neon what, where, when and how I came by it. Especially seeing as how expensive school is anymore.

[Ink-Stained Wretch]

The blog post reminds me a bit of when I first graduated college, had trouble finding a job and tried to sign up with a certain employment agency. I understand legitimate employment agencies might sometimes charge money on a commission basis -- a percentage of your first paycheck, maybe -- but this agency tried to charge me money up-front, and even my then-naive self knew better than that. (Also, if I had the kind of money they wanted, I wouldn't need a job in the first place.)

"His over-simplistic “Money always flows to the writer employee” is his central argument ... Of course writers employees should make money for their work, but the premise that they will never have to spend money if they publish, promote or market their books get a job is incredibly naïve.

[herdon]

Recruiters charge the company money, not the employee.

[ResearchGuy]

Originally Posted by herdon

Recruiters charge the company money, not the employee.

Dunno how it works now, but a few decades ago job placement firms charged the job-seeker.

--Ken

[Ink-Stained Wretch]

Originally Posted by herdon

Recruiters charge the company money, not the employee.

Similar to how legitimate publishers charge the book-buyer money, not the book writer.

[DreamWeaver]

Originally Posted by ResearchGuy

Dunno how it works now, but a few decades ago job placement firms charged the job-seeker.

--Ken

But didn't they take a percentage of first year's wages AFTER they found the seeker a job, not an up-front fee? Or am I remembering that wrong?

[ResearchGuy]

Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

But didn't they take a percentage of first year's wages AFTER they found the seeker a job, not an up-front fee? Or am I remembering that wrong?

I recall the percentage of earnings part . . . don't recall whether an up-front fee was also standard, or imposed by some. It is researchable, I imagine, and might be of interest as a historical inquiry in a time of rampant unemployment and job-placement gimmickry. (Fodder for an article -- although maybe that's been done recently.) Off topic for this thread, though.

Edited to add: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/...-Agencies.html might be of interest to the curious. Yes, way back when some agencies did charge up-front fees, an abusive practice leading to regulation. Who knows, maybe there is a potential model there for regulation of pay-to-play publishing. And voila, on topic!

--Ken

[Ink-Stained Wretch]

Looks like I chose a bad analogy. Point is, I didn't sign on with that job agency because I knew they had zero incentive to find me or anyone else a job -- given the hefty up-front fee they charged, that alone provided a steady income stream for them. No -- if I'm going to sign on with a job-search agency, I want one that won't get paid unless and until I get paid. And that's how you pick a literary agent and a publisher, too.

[ResearchGuy]

Originally Posted by Ink-Stained Wretch

. . . that's how you pick a literary agent and a publisher, too.

More likely, the (legitimate) agent -- and certainly the (legitimate commercial) publisher -- will pick authors, not the other way around.

--Ken