Interview With Chris Vogler
Interview by Jenna Glatzer

Chris Vogler is a writer and story consultant. His book, "The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers" is based on an influential memo he wrote while analyzing scripts for the Walt Disney Company in the 1980s. He was invited to consult on Disney animation projects including ALADDIN, THE LION KING, HERCULES, and FANTASIA 2000. He is writing a series of animated features for Munich Animation Studios and a musical adaptation of Peter Pan in association with Jim Henson's Creature Shop. As a consultant he works with advertising agencies and companies that design websites and computer games. He is producing a remake of a Swedish comedy for Warner Bros. in association with Barry Levinson's Baltimore/Spring Creek production company.

Your book, The Writer's Journey, was inspired by Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces." What drew you to this book?

As a young film student at USC I was on a kind of vision quest, looking for guidance and a unifying system to organize the chaotic world of writing. I knew there had to be some order to it. I had already sensed some of the patterns in myth and movies when a film professor pointed me in the direction of Campbell's book. It was one of those life-changing experiences, hitting me like a bolt of lightning and completely re-organizing my brain. In that same semester the first STAR WARS movie was released, further clobbering me with the possibilities of Campbell's ideas.

Your book explores storytelling in terms of the "Hero's Journey." How do you answer critics who complain that writers should never follow formulas?

I agree with them. I hate formulaic movies, especially those that follow the Hero's Journey model formulaically. I don't see it or use it as a formula. It's not a cookbook recipe that you can follow to whip up a good screenplay. Instead, it's a map of the human territory that underlies storytelling, on which you can plan a unique journey that will follow a completely original path while still touching at the classic stations and crossing points that are present in any human experience.

I don't say it's the only way to tell a story or communicate with an audience. I do say that almost any story or work of art can be interpreted in the language of the Hero's Journey, because it's a universal description of just about anything that can happen to a human being.

How does your method differ from the traditional "three act structure?"

My approach is based on the three-act model that Syd Field articulated and which is still the most practical way for filmmakers to communicate amongst themselves. The difference is that I see the long second act naturally breaking down into two distinct movements -- one leading up to a central event or crisis (Syd Field's Midpoint, my central Ordeal) and one trailing away from the central event. The first movement of Act II is the preparation for the central Ordeal, and the second movement is the consequences of that central event. So you end up with a structure of four movements, Act I, Act IIA, Act IIB, and Act III.

Of course these are just conveniences, ways to talk generally about things that are never so neat and tidy in practice. The STORY tells you how many acts or movements it needs. Maybe you choose to think of it as one continuous, seamless flow of images, maybe you discover it needs twenty-six acts, movements, or chapters, maybe you don't spend one second thinking about how many acts it has. The best rule for structuring is "What happens next?" Your obligation is to be constantly, unrelentingly interesting, not perfectly structured.

How can a writer develop an anti-hero with whom audiences will empathize?

Just make them good characters, meaning they should have all the human equipment -- hopes, dreams, fears, flaws, blessings, etc. Maybe they started out as optimists or innocents who got burned by life. They are wounded in some way. Maybe they had noble aspirations that got crushed or corrupted. They should have some flamboyant, colorful, flashy, charming, or skillful aspects. They can be appealing by their contempt for the hypocrisy of conventional heroes or society itself. They can be attractive because they get to express something the audience feels deeply and strongly. They fulfill some wish: to see the crushing authority of the world defied, to escape from social restrictions, to act on impulse without inhibition.

One of the key steps in the hero's journey is the "meeting with the mentor." Can you give us examples of characters who function as mentors?

Obvious mentors are benevolent guides and teachers like those in GOODBYE, MR. CHIPS and MR. HOLLAND'S OPUS, or the Jedi masters in the Star Wars series. The caddy in THE LEGEND OF BAGGER VANCE or Patrick Stewart's character in X-MEN are mentors to their young heroes. Sometimes mentoring is less obvious and may be combined with other jobs like that of villain or antagonist, because we can learn a great deal from our opponents. That's the case in BEDAZZLED, where The Devil is trying to win the hero's soul but also serves as a teacher and guide for him, showing him in the long run what's really important in life. In romantic stories, you can look at the lovers as mentors for each other, each guiding the other to a deeper understanding.

How can a writer give enough backstory without stagnating the story?

Give the backstory in pieces as a series of reveals or surprises. Give it on the run, while people are DOING something active, so the story doesn't stop. Let it come out of conflict, so that people blurt out backstory in the heat of an argument or have it pulled out of them with great difficulty. Use visuals, props, costumes, and sets to reveal backstory without words. A house full of trophies will tell us someone has a sports background without a word of dialogue.

Behavior can reveal backstory. It's especially effective if people refuse to answer questions, change the subject, or squirm when casual questions are asked about their backgrounds. Raise questions about background but leave some unanswered and let the audience do some of the work -- they might fill in a more interesting backstory than can be provided with explanations and dialogue.

Must every script have external conflict, or can an entire script be based on the hero's internal conflict?

Even in the most internalized of stories, it's good to have some external sign of the inner turmoil, even if it's just a spilled coffee cup or a stuck window. It's just realistic that inner conflict will find expression outside of the person in the form of disagreements, misunderstandings, and physical struggles. However, once in awhile you might create an interesting contrast between a placid exterior environment and a raging inner conflict.

How can a hero prove his or her character arc is complete?

Character arc is another of those convenient terms used to pummel writers in story meetings. Of course, you do have to demonstrate that a protagonist has learned a lesson, made a choice, or evolved to a new level, after passing through a series of logical, believable steps that evoke some conflict or emotion. One way to dramatize a character change is to show that the hero is able to do something at the end of the story that was impossible at the beginning (accept herself, forgive someone, be a team player, stand up for herself, find love, overcome an obstacle, defeat an opponent, reach a goal.) You might ask, has the hero gone through all the logical stages of learning about this problem? As a storyteller, have I explored all the possibilities inherent in this situation?

What are some of the most common mistakes you see new screenwriters make?

Over-explaining and over-writing. They give a lot of unnecessary detail because they are afraid their audience -- the readers of the script -- won't get it. We get it. Give your readers credit and let them participate. It's amazing what you can leave out and still achieve full communication.

On the other hand, some new writers take too much for granted, and don't spend enough time setting up and emphasizing their main character. Sometimes I don't know who the story is about for forty or fifty pages because the characters are introduced with equal emphasis. Remember that writing is also directing -- directing the audience's attention. "Look here. Now look here. Look at this -- it's important."

In writing for "Hollywood", is it ever advisable to write an open-ended story?

Hollywood favors "closed-loop" stories in which the loose ends are tied up and all plot threads are neatly resolved, like comforting fairy tales designed to reassure a child. However, Hollywood also adores novelty and variety, so a story that breaks the "rules" and isn't so neatly tied up may attract attention. You can be sure it will be severely tested in the much-hated development process, where all the conservative tendencies of the business will try to tack on a happy ending or a "satisfying" conclusion, but once in a while the open, ambiguous ending works for Hollywod, especially in certain genres like horror, science fiction, or film noir where the whole concept may be to challenge conventional, comforting patterns of closure and resolution.

What's one thing you wish you'd learned earlier about the film industry?

It was a revelation to me from my recent run as a development exec at Fox that the business is controlled by a small universe of official buyers and sellers. The buyers are a small number of studio executives with the power to say yes or least a definite maybe; the sellers are the agents and producers who regularly approach them with material. The sellers are like accredited diplomats at a royal court. I didn't appreciate before how limited the system is, and in some ways, how simple.

What are your responsibilities as a script consultant?

I have to read the script with an open mind, trying to evaluate it on its own terms. I try to think of what will bring out the writer's true intentions. Then I write notes or prepare for a meeting with the writer and producer, in which I look for a "big idea" -- one unifying, overall insight that will bring the most positive development to the idea. Then, if the script is relatively close to production, I might go over it page by page to raise questions and make suggestions. I also evaluate the project -- what's the best format for this story, novel, feature script, TV series, animation? What's the best path for getting it produced?

Anything further you'd like to add?

Adapt or die. Anybody wanting to keep working in this business should be very open-minded and adaptable. Screenwriting seems to be quickly dissolving and blending into other forms, such as writing for the Internet, creating computer game scenarios, and designing hybrids of movies and amusement park rides. A small number of people will be able to make their living entirely from writing Hollywood feature films; most writers will make a living by creating all sorts of things in all sorts of places. For example, designing websites is an infant art form, about where cinema was in 1900, and who knows what it will turn into? Some of my work lately has been in advising website and game designers on how to put the techniques of drama, myth, and film into the experiences they create.

The first generation of people who grew up in a world where computers were taken for granted may have new preferences in drama and entertainment. Screenwriters may have to adapt to their rhythms. Open-ended stories may become more popular. Young people may not be responding to movies as they used to simply because movies are finite, they go in one direction and they come to an end, whereas the possibilities of the computer are endless, literally something you can be immersed in all the time. Movies may evolve into much more complex, flexible, and open-ended forms, as is happening already with DVD versions that include alternate scenes and background material. We've always desired to see around the edges of the frame, to extend the movie experience and be able in some sense to live in that movie, and the future will allow us to indulge this even more.

Chris Vogler's website for his consulting company, Storytech, is at http://www.thewritersjourney.com. Order his book, The Writer's Journey, at discounted prices from the publisher at www.mwp.com. 

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