Interview with Gayle Kirschenbaum
Interview by Jenna Glatzer

Gayle started her career as a freelance graphic designer in advertising and promotion in New York. In less than a year, she became a producer/director of award winning multimedia shows both in the United States and abroad. Soon afterwards, she formed her own company, Kirschenbaum Productions, producing national television commercials for such clients as Pepsi, General Foods, Pampers, Coleco and Mattel.

As writer/producer/director, Gayle entered documentaries with Hestia House, a film about homeless women that garnered an award at the Chicago Film Festival. Her second film, for PBS, Doumeni House, won an Emmy; her third, Octavia Butler, an intimate portrait of the woman novelist, won an Emmy nomination. These led to Gayle’s most ambitious project and first independent film, The Fifth Line.

Gayle has written, directed and produced one-hour documentaries for the Arts & Entertainment Network’s Ancient Mysteries, Mysteries of the Bible, History of the Footsoldier, Lifetime’s Intimate Portraits, Discovery Channel’s Storm Warnings! and The Learning Channel‘s Quest series. Most recently she has written and produced for a show on Fox Family Channel called COURAGE, The Rosie O’Donnell Show, The Ricki Lake Show, and Mugshots on Court TV. She has also produced for, America’s Most Wanted (FOX), New Attitudes (Lifetime) I Witness Video (NBC) Real Stories of the Highway Patrol (CBS), A Year to Remember (syndicated), Hollywood Chronicles (Discovery Channel), Take Five (PBS) and Power Profiles (FNN).

With her company, Kirschenbaum Productions, Gayle has written and developed screenplays, both dramatic and reality series, and game shows. With her partner Nat Segaloff, Gayle co-created a reality series called Judgment Day: Pardons & Parole. The pilot is currently in production at HBO with Grosso/Jacobson Communications. Kirschenbaum is a published author of essays, articles and short stories. Her syndicated column, Lovers on Lovers, can be seen at www.isyndicate.com. Most importantly, her greatest accomplishment is her "dogter" Chelsea and their new project, a film called A Dog’s Life: A Dogamentary.

How did you get into the entertainment industry?

I was working in advertising, making TV commercials. My company,
Kirschenbaum Productions, represented TV commercial directors and animators.   I was primarily getting the jobs for them and suffering from a lack of creative fulfillment. We were awarded a Red Man chewing tobacco commercial. "60 Minutes" had just done a story on lip and tongue cancer in kids. I called up the agency and said we couldn't have anything to do with their product. That was the turning point for me.  I had fallen into that business, which was quite lucrative, making it a trap. I knew money wasn't my only driving force in life. My previous background was in fine art and I had been a graphic designer and designer of multimedia shows for industry prior to moving into repping TV commercial directors.  

That career took off pretty quickly. I hustled quite a bit and several top directors were wooing me to close my office and come rep them.  But then I did some deep soul searching.  I decided to get out of the business completely before I had increased my standard of living
considerably and was stuck.  I also decided to get out of NY. I closed my office and moved to LA, the heart of the entertainment business. I wanted to tell stories. I thought if  you could make it in NY, you could make in LA. Think again. 

LA is a very different kind of town, a city of illusions. But I brought my NY relentlessness. I had a couple of college buddies who were living there. One, Bob Israel, a college sweetheart, had started a movie trailer company, Aspect Ratio, which later became one of the largest. Bob had also produced the comedy Bachelor's Party.  He put me into a directing class with him. Directing, working with actors, came quite naturally for me.

I had previously studied a bit of acting with The Wooster Group in NY.  This is the group Spalding Gray and Willem Dafoe came out of.  Someone who was observing the directing class asked me if I would direct and produce and docudrama on homeless women and children.  Now we were talking-- making a film about something that could help others as opposed to selling chewing tobacco.  You might say my idealism was coming out. I made the film and it won an award at the Chicago Film Festival.  From that, I pursued the PBS station in LA, KCET.  I continuously called an executive producer named Joe Kwong.  I was pretty good about cold calling and schmoozing people on the phone. 

Joe agreed to meet me.  I had nothing to show him but this docudrama.  I went to his office and he was distracted by phone calls and other employees wanting something from him.  I left him my tape, but I don't believe he ever looked at it.  He was the EP of Arts & Culture.  I decided to write a proposal for a short film. I did and dropped it off. He called me right away and told me that he really liked it but that they had done something in that area (it was a theater story), but would I mind if the researcher called me with another story? Of course not! Sure enough, I received a call from a researcher who handed me a magazine article about a house designed by famous artist Robert Graham (Angelica Huston's husband). I was off and running.  

The one thing I need to add here is that I was never a writer. I was used to getting scripts, storyboarding, and realizing them.  Now I suddenly I had to also write. I plunged into this project full force.  Getting access to people and interviewing people was quite easy and so was making the film visually appealing.  I finished this and had
beginner's luck and won an Emmy it.  And I was nominated for an Emmy for my second documentary on the author Octavia Butler.  That is how it all began.

You've written and produced for many high-profile television shows and networks.  How did you make these connections to land these jobs?

When I won an Emmy, doors opened easier for me. But many people win Emmys in Hollywood, so it's not a novelty. You've got to run with it when it's hot.  I also just kept networking. Every time I'd meet someone or be interviewed for a job, I'd ask them if they knew anyone else I could talk to. One name leads to another.  I recommend, when one is looking to break in, to ask for "courtesy interviews" instead of asking for a job.  First of all, it takes pressure off of someone because he or she might not have a job to offer you, and second, people generally enjoy giving advice and helping others.  And third, if you are breaking into a new field, it's important to learn about it. By meeting people who hold various positions in this field, you can get some insight to see if that's the path you want to take. When I first moved out to LA, I was invited to observe Cheers for a couple of weeks.  I realized then that I had no interest in directing that kind of TV. It's more of a writer's medium.

What interests you about documentaries?

I think I was born a true documentarian. I love the truth, I love exploring, investigating, revealing, exposing.  Documentaries are a powerful tool for educating the public and helping others, changing laws, kicking people into action, and just great entertainment too!  I always say I watch a bad documentary because I know it's the truth, but I can't watch more than a few more lines of bad dialogue or bad acting in a dramatic film. Years ago, I used to frequently audio tape record parts of my life-­ conversations with friends, family members, etc. Several people are dead now and those tapes are priceless.

A bizarre thing happened once, many years ago. It was a Jewish holiday and I was having dinner at my folks house.  Several family members were there, and I had a tape recorder going because I was interviewing my aunt and uncle for our family genealogy.  My aunt looked beautiful and was alive and vivacious. The next minute, she asked my uncle for smelling salt (my father always carried smelling salt-- they were funeral directors and I suppose needed to have that on hand for their business). The next minute, my aunt fell over and had the death rattles.  It was a scene out of a Woody Allen film. I have the audio tape of my aunt's last words and death. Another strange coincidence just happened. A few weeks ago, I saw another uncle after not seeing him for twenty years. I  shot some DV of him and my dad and then told him I'd come visit him to get his life story. He died last week before I did that, but I realized I had the last video tape of Uncle Seymour.  I'm bummed I didn't get to visit him again. I feel like a lot of family history died with him.

How is writing a documentary script different from writing a feature film script?

A feature film can come completely from your imagination. You don't have worry about incorporating real footage, archival photos, etc. A feature film is also driven by dialogue and action. A documentary script depends on the material shot and acquired. You need to put your story together, keeping in mind what you have to cover it.

Is there a market for documentary writers, or is that something that's usually handled by the producer/director? 

On smaller budget documentaries, such as the ones you see on several of the cable stations (A&E, History Channel, Lifetime), mostly the
producer/director writes the script, too.  Sometimes on larger budget docs, they will bring in a writer.  I think it's more common in Europe to have a separate writer and director.

How do you find subjects for documentaries?

Most of the documentaries I did for hire came with the subject.  Many were historical, which I normally would not pursue on my own. But I certainly got to learn a lot.  My own interests range from human rights to social conditions to humor. The few feature films I wrote are comedies.

You co-created a television series, Pardons & Parole, which is now in production at HBO. How did you pitch this to them? 

"Pardons and Parole" is the working title. We got money last year from Lion's Gate TV to do a pilot.  I originally wanted to make it a one hour weekly nighttime show. I had been producing for America's Most Wanted at the time; Nat Segaloff and I created the show and I thought it would make a good companion show. 

Anyway, we ended up doing a half hour pilot and they (CAA and our
partners, GrossoJacobson Communications,) tried to sell it to first run syndication and to the networks.  I moved back from LA to NY and sent an email to a friend who is a producer to say "hi," and also mentioned the show and wondered if HBO would be interested. The next day she called and said Sheila Nevins would like to see it. That's how it began.  Sheila loved the concept but wanted a different execution.  I was thrilled about that.  I love HBO's programming.  We are producing a one-hour pilot, and Joe Berlinger is directing.

What do you need to have in order before approaching networks-- sample scripts?  

It depends on what you are pitching and what your track record is already. If you own the rights to a book and person's life rights that people want, you have better leverage.  If you want to pursue it as a movie for television and you have no previous credits in this, it's best
to partner with a production company who does. They will get you in the door and they will handle the deficit financing. Remember that sometimes the idea is less important to the networks than who they are working with. Frequently, TV stations have the idea themselves and hire the producers they trust and want to make the film with.  

In the world of reality TV and documentaries, I would suggest the same thing if you don't have a track record. Pitch it to production companies who would be the right match. But make sure to register and/or copyright your material before you go out with it. It's always good to have a lawyer or an agent on your side, too. Unfortunately, this business suffers from a lack of loyalty and integrity and many people (including myself) have had properties stolen.  It costs a lot to fight back, and many people don't. So protect yourself.

For a documentary or reality series you should have a treatment-­ and
target it towards the audience you are going to pitch to.

Tell me about your new film project, Dogamentary.

The film is called "A Dog's Life: A Dogamentary," but I'm creating a new genre of filmmaking called "dogamentaries."

You might say I have been obsessed with my little DOG-ter, Chelsea. She has changed my life so much that people no longer think of me as just Gayle but Gayle and Chelsea. She has a remarkable personality-- quiet, willful, smart and sensitive. Plus, she enjoys leading lady's looks. We are always stopped by doting admirers.  I take her almost everywhere with me. I'm lucky because Chelsea is not a barker (yeah, she barks when someone is at the door but not at unnecessary moment), so I could sneak her in places in her Sherpa bag and no one knows she is there.  One time, I had a shoot for America's Most Wanted and had Chelsea with me.  I didn't plan on having her with me, but it just happened that way. No one knew she was in the bag, and I was doing an intense interview with the grandmother of the suspect. She was crying her heart out, and all of a sudden, I heard a whimper and slight scratching. It was Chelsea trying to get out of her bag.

Anyway, I've tried to make Chelsea famous for a few years. First we wrote a book together; got an agent, but no sale. Then I tried to get her into movies; put a composite sheet together, but no movie offers. We moved back to NY and just continued to have funny adventures together, so that's when I decided I had to make a film about our life.  But I knew Chelsea would want life from her POV included. I found the most incredible man to help. I call him Mr. Spycam. He builds spy cameras for such TV shows as 60 Minutes, 20/20, and even rigged the taxi for HBO's Taxicab Confessions. He loves animals. He came
onboard and built a camera for Chelsea to wear. I am forever grateful for his contribution.  I bought equipment, wrangled up a great team of people and started shooting. It kind of evolved in the shooting.  

Being reality, several things happened that were never expected. In the midst of the making of the film, Chelsea and I became the center of attention and were covered by international media, Chelsea got a modeling job, and she even found her husband.  I'm still single, but we are sure that will change as soon as Chelsea gets her Hollywood contract. 

Part of the film is my quest to what it is really about.  In search of answers and professional advice I go visit  Albert Maysle (Maysle Brothers-- "Gimme Shelter," "Let it Be," "Grey Gardens"), the master filmmaker. You should have seen his reaction and his staff when I walked in with a crew and a little dog with a camera on her. We've got some funny material there. And Albert is a dear person. I
didn't know him before, but he was completely open to being filmed for this. And has become a friend. A special soul.

Also, during the shooting of this film, Chelsea started refusing to work and I was left with no choice but to get her a stand-in.  I shot a casting session for her stand-in.  You can't believe how many Shih Tzus showed up.  But we never expected a large American Bull Dog to come.  Wait till you see that scene.

How are you planning to use the Internet in conjunction with this project?

I am a communication junkie and have been online since 1993 when there was only one person I knew to email.  It's amazing what the Internet has done. It's opened the world and made us more global. People who before would never write a letter now are busy emailing away.  You can be sitting naked in the middle of the night and doing research on any topic you choose or communicating with someone in Australia.  Before I moved from LA, I was a guest on a webcomedy show that a friend of mine created. He was a writer on Seinfeld, a funny guy. I went on camera and gave my honest farewell to LA and didn't hold back on my feelings.  It was a live webcasting and when I went on and started speaking my mind, people wrote in like crazy.  We had a computer in front of us and I was able to read their questions and respond immediately. That turned me on. 

I love interacting and creating communities, so what better place to be
build an international community than on the web?  At first, I just wanted to put up a site to show clips of the movie and promote it and then perhaps put up previous work of mine and promote myself. But then I began working on the site and now I'm actually doing the design and building (I had someone do the homepage with all the clips, which I think is great, but I've taken over)... it began evolving and now it's about building a community and interacting with others.  We are at the beginning stages of this. Chelsea now even has her own business cards. 

We will be adding a few more pages, like the Chelsea and Mommy advice column. People write in with their dog/human problems and Chelsea and I have our different opinions on how to handle it.  We have a contest page up now. People send in their funny human/canine story and pix, and we will publish the winners. And I'm also interested in having great links so people can access other wonderful, entertaining and informational sites from us.

There are a lot of screenwriters who are tired of waiting for Hollywood to notice them.  If a screenwriter wants to produce his own script, how would you recommend that he learn how to do so?  

First, I would suggest getting involved in an organization where people are doing this, like IFP (Independent Feature Project). It's inspirational to be around young people who are actually doing what you want to do. And just start mingling and asking questions and reading about it.  There is also the organization AIVF, which is quite helpful for filmmakers. I know you have to put a package together to go out and get financing. Of course, attaching talent, which will attract financing, is how many people get started. 

How true is it that you need to "know somebody" to break into the business?

Nepotism is alive and well, but that should never stop you.  Where there is a will, there is a way!  Remember how Steven Spielberg and Sylvester Stallone got started. If they could do it, so can you.  Perseverance is the key to success.

To learn more about the film A Dog's Life: A Dogamentary, visit www.dogamentary.com. 

To read Gayle's story "My Life as a Single Parent with my Dog-ter, Chelsea," visit here.

To view her syndicated column "Lovers on Lovers," visit here.

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