A Clockwork Orange

Captain Morgan

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I've seen the movie quite a number of times, and only recently found out that it was in fact made from an original novel.

As I understand it, there was more than one version due to American censorship, and Kubrik's film follows the shorter one.

Anyhow, I'll probably end up picking it up from the library soon, but was curious what others have to say on the subject.
 

blacbird

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I view A Clockwork Orange as one of the finest novels of the past half-century, but it also admittedly is one that won't appeal to everybody. And the movie, if not precisely faithful to the novel in every detail, is very much faithful to the tone, spirit and intent of the novel. It's black-humor satire of the most wonderfully nasty sort, and a narrative tour-de-force.

caw
 

Deccydiva

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I saw the film when it first came out in the UK, in fact it was my first "X" rated film! I found it tremedously powerful and when I saw the novel a while later I bought it. That was over thirty years ago and I still have it. I found the natsat language took a bit of getting used to at first but having seen the film it didn't take long to immerse myself.
Every time I read the book I find something new in it that I didn't notice before.
Five stars from me!;)
 

fullbookjacket

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I read the novel earlier this year, but I've never seen the movie in its entirety. Guess I need to do that.

I loved the inventiveness of the language in the book.
 

Bill Ward

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I've just posted a long review of the book on my blog, if anyone is interested.

Celia, the film ending is not the original ending of the book, it's the ending of the book as it was published in America. I'm sure Kubrick -- living and working in the UK, filming with UK crews and cast -- was aware of the full version and chose to follow the version he did.

I love the film, by the way. The film expressed aspects of the book in amazing and unforgettable ways, and it's one of my favorites. I don't really believe it could have pulled off chapter 21 if it wanted too, so I think Kubrick made the right choice.

But it isn't the whole story, my little droogies, viddy my review and learn all proper.

Though I should warn you it has some horrorshow big spoilers.
 

Celia Cyanide

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Celia, the film ending is not the original ending of the book, it's the ending of the book as it was published in America. I'm sure Kubrick -- living and working in the UK, filming with UK crews and cast -- was aware of the full version and chose to follow the version he did.

You are right, I got it backwards! The American publisher removed the final chapter because they didn't find it believable. Kubrick was aware of the final chapter, but had never considered using it.
 

rhymegirl

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I've never read the novel but I must say I did see the film and it is one of the only movies I walked out of before it was even half over.
 

CaroGirl

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I read the novel before I saw the film because I was too young to watch it! My older brother, however, went to a Halloween party as Alex, complete with long underwear, bowler hat and maskie.

I ADORE this novel and the film. I think I probably read the American version because mine had the glossary. I'd love to pick up a UK version and reread this wonderful piece of literature.

As I recall, I did a highschool literature essay on a comparison of theme in A Brave New World, 1984 and A Clockwork Orange. I was a weird kid.
 
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DamaNegra

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I loved this book too. And I really like that Kubrik decided to take away the last chapter, the movie would have been spoiled by it.

The book, however... eh, I'm ambivalent on that point. I suppose that it adds an extra layer of depth to the character, but maybe it's because I'd seen the movie first, it felt as though it stuck out too much, as if it had been added as an afterthought. Methinks I'd better read that again.
 

Mr. Anonymous

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I didn't get the ending at all.


SPOILERS.............



























I understood Burgess's message, but the notion that Alex could simply "grow out of" his masochistic tendencies was very hard for me to swallow. Aside from that, I thought it was a great novel.
 

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I understood Burgess's message, but the notion that Alex could simply "grow out of" his masochistic tendencies was very hard for me to swallow. Aside from that, I thought it was a great novel.

"I was cured, all right."

If you think that statement was literally true, you might want to read the novel again. Few novels I know of ooze irony in the way A Clockwork Orange does.

caw
 

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I view A Clockwork Orange as one of the finest novels of the past half-century, but it also admittedly is one that won't appeal to everybody. And the movie, if not precisely faithful to the novel in every detail, is very much faithful to the tone, spirit and intent of the novel. It's black-humor satire of the most wonderfully nasty sort, and a narrative tour-de-force.

caw

Seconded.

That book is marvellous.
 

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I remember many years ago when I was in high school, an English teacher started to show us the film version of A Clockwork Orange before he remembered just how brutal it was. Granted, it was an alternative high school for dropouts, so the class was fairly mature and street-smart, but still...

The novel is a real work of art though, with poetic language like the description of someone getting kicked with a "gentle application of the boot." Not to mention the Nadsat that gets stuck in your head real horrorshow like.
 

Celia Cyanide

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"I was cured, all right."

If you think that statement was literally true, you might want to read the novel again. Few novels I know of ooze irony in the way A Clockwork Orange does.

caw

"Oh, yes, I was cured, all right," is NOT the original ending. It is the last line of the film, and the last line of the US version of the novel. The original version has another chapter, in which Alex reforms himself, and it is mainly because he grows out of his interest in the old ultra violence. I didn't buy it, and I can see why the publisher wanted it removed. It's good to read the last chapter, to see how Burgess wrote it, but I think the film ends where it should.
 

dolores haze

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Love the book; love the movie. I didn't know that there was two different versions of the novel. I read the Brit version,.My poor mother was horrified when she found me reading it. A teacher at school had lent it to me. The movie was banned in the UK for quite a while, wasn't it?
 

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And actually research shows that the main reason very violent people stop is normal aging and development of adult social bonds such as with a spouse and through employment. So I find it plausible as an ending.
 

Celia Cyanide

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And actually research shows that the main reason very violent people stop is normal aging and development of adult social bonds such as with a spouse and through employment. So I find it plausible as an ending.

I don't, because Alex didn't have either of those things. He also says that he will have a son, and his son will also kill someone, and he won't be able to stop it, but, like, whatever. He didn't really learn anything, he just got bored, so what's the point?

Dolores Haze...the film wasn't exactly "banned," but pulled from release by Kubrick himself. He attended a screening in the UK and didn't like the way the audience was reacting to the violence. It's weird to watch, because the story is from Alex's perspective, and he finds violence hilarious. It is presented as if it is funny, which makes it disturbing. But people were laughing.

I was living in London when Kubrick died, and the film was released theatrically. The general consensus at the time was that the film was overrated. I think people were expecting it to be a lot more graphic then it was. The film has a reputation for being disturbing, but it is the way the violence is presented, and not how graphic it is.
 

Bill Ward

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But Alex did experience what it was like to be a victim. For the whole of his prison and post-ludovico experience he longed to go back to being the way he was, but a person can't go back to innocence after those kinds of experiences. I think if you look beneath the surface level of the narrative the clues that point to change within him are there, though I admit they are very brief. It could be that Burgess should have put more in, to make the ending more inevitable, but I think the 'surprise' aspect of it actually fits in well with maturation -- I think a lot of people 'wake up' in their late teens or early twenties and realize they are different people than they once imagined. It's sort of the first time a person is really aware of human-scaled change -- I think it's what people mean when they say someone has grown up.

Alex's perception of the world changes in each section of the novel, even if he doesn't quite realize it and clings to his old standards. Prison traumatizes him, the killing in the prison is completely different from the violence outside, the treatment robs him of his emotional language of sex, music, and violence, he's turned out and becomes helpless and longs only for a home, he finds HOME and is actually grateful for his treatment there but is then used as a tool. Then he tries to kill himself. I don't think his growing up occurs only in Chap 21 -- it's there through the whole book, but of course he doesn't realize that's what's taking place, no kid understands it until its happened.

I think his growing up is surprising only if you think of him an archetype throughout the book (which is sort of the way he sees himself), rather than a person. That's the difference really with the film, and its probably a necessary and justifiable difference, but film Alex is a two-dimensional character who is pretty much frozen at a point in time.

I agree that the film is disturbing because of the way it presents violence, not for the violence itself.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I think his growing up is surprising only if you think of him an archetype throughout the book (which is sort of the way he sees himself), rather than a person.

Except that I don't believe Alex DID grow up, completely. If he had, he would certainly have realized that rape and murder is wrong, wouldn't he? He doesn't seem to understand this, because he is okay with having a child who will kill someone, and he won't be able to stop it. Rape, torture, and murder are not normal in adolescence. The change seems to occur mainly because he has become bored with his lifestyle, not because he really learned anything. His first hint that he is changing is not empathy for other people, but instead the desire to keep money for himself instead of sharing it.

And I do think Alex in the film has a character arc, even though it's not the same.
 

Bill Ward

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I agree to some extent. Firstly, his 'growing up' does not have to be complete, the point is that it has started. And yes, maybe his reasons for getting bored with his life are not necessarily the best reasons, they don't grow so much from empathy as purposelessness, but that doesn't really change the argument that he has been growing throughout the book. His journey is less about learning empathy than it is about learning to think about himself in a different way -- the point isn't that he's learned the error of his ways or found virtue, just that he's changed on his own, through his life experiences, and you can see the change in each section of the book.

However, I would also not rule out completely that he has learned some empathy, and just lacks the language to share that insight. He holds back from violence while his droogies participate, and we can't state this is purely because it is boring -- it may no longer be satisfying to him because he has learned what it is like to be a victim. I think at the very least the picture of the baby, while appealing to him for some selfish notions, also reveals a new capacity in his character for loving something else.

I think you miss the point somewhat about the passage where he talks about his son killing someone. He merely glimpses a truth of human nature -- that no matter how hard a parent tries to teach their children from their own mistakes, the children will have to go out and make decisions for themselves. He's not OK with his son killing someone, he's just acknowledging that even though he finally figured out it's no good way to live your life his son, and his grandson, and so on throughout history will have to keep learning the same lesson over and over, and there is nothing he can do about it. It's the whole point of the book and Chap 21 in particular -- that people must be free to make their own choices if they are to remain human.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I think you miss the point somewhat about the passage where he talks about his son killing someone. He merely glimpses a truth of human nature -- that no matter how hard a parent tries to teach their children from their own mistakes, the children will have to go out and make decisions for themselves. He's not OK with his son killing someone, he's just acknowledging that even though he finally figured out it's no good way to live your life his son, and his grandson, and so on throughout history will have to keep learning the same lesson over and over, and there is nothing he can do about it. It's the whole point of the book and Chap 21 in particular -- that people must be free to make their own choices if they are to remain human.

If it is inevidable that Alex's son will commit murder, then it isn't really a choice at all. If he believes that his son cannot be a better person than he was, the sensible choice would be not to have a child.
 

inkkognito

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A Clockwork Orange was the movie I saw on my very first "real" date, at age 15. Talk about a weird first-date movie! But the guy I went with, who was a year older, was in my creative writing class and had told me all about it...it was one of his favorites. Little did I know that they did an annual screening at a nearby theater. He was piquing my interest so he could ask me out to see it. He "translated" the nadsat for me so I probably understood it a lot better than I would have otherwise.

I read the American version of the book many years later. I've never read the UK last chapter and I doubt I ever will because it doesn't appeal to me. Without it, I think that the book has a delicious irony summed up in a perfect ending sentence.

I just love the old Ludwig Van synthesizer music too, and I can never think about "Singin' in the Rain" in quite the same way.
 

Bill Ward

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The music is quite good, isn't it? I have the soundtrack and it's top notch. And that is a weird first date movie. ;)

Celia, you may want to look at the exact quote in the book again. It does not suggest that anything is inevitable about his son, ALex says something like 'he would do all the veshces (things) he (Alex) had done, yes perhaps even commit murder...' The only thing inevitable about it is that humanity goes on and on, and each generation has to make it's own mistakes -- even if they are the same mistakes made by their parents. Alex pretty clearly isn't happy about it -- in fact bringing it up like that, even transposing the exact situation he found himself in (he mentions killing an old women surrounded by cats) on his hypothetical kid shows that he absolutely does care about having a kid that's just going to go on and do the same terrible things he did -- but he realizes that just as he made his own bad choices, his children will be free to do the same.

I'm sure Alex's Pee and Em didn't raise Alex to be the little monster he was, just as he has every intention of trying to have his kids turn out OK -- he just realizes that there aren't any guarantees. Guarantees are for the Ludovico Technique.
 
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Captain Morgan

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I've never read the novel but I must say I did see the film and it is one of the only movies I walked out of before it was even half over.

Hmm! Now was that not a silly waste of a good ticket?
 

L M Ashton

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I remember many years ago when I was in high school, an English teacher started to show us the film version of A Clockwork Orange before he remembered just how brutal it was. Granted, it was an alternative high school for dropouts, so the class was fairly mature and street-smart, but still...
Huh. My English teacher did show it to our honour's class of 15 and 16 year olds. I was the first to walk out, followed by about half the class. The English teacher then changed his mind about counting the essays on the movie towards our grade.

Haven't read the book, and honestly, have no desire to. I'm obviously not the target audience.