Because there has to be controversy about everything.

[Emilander]

A shirt covered in naked men would have been equally inappropriate in this setting.

Of course. But it would not have generated a similar level of, or any, outrage either. I understand that sexism towards women and misogyny are very real issues, but this shirt isn't an attack on women. It's just a tacky shirt that unfortunately saw the light of the internet.

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Of course. But it would not have generated a similar level of, or any, outrage either. I understand that sexism towards women and misogyny are very real issues, but this shirt isn't an attack on women. It's just a tacky shirt that unfortunately saw the light of the internet.

Sexism doesn't have to be a direct attack on women.


Again, I don't think this merited a great deal more than a passing complaint on the twitters of people at least tangentially related to the field. Certainly the guy didn't need to be driven to tears. I don't think a basic apology on Twitter would have been unreasonable, if he decided he had made a mistake. But this is smaller potatoes compared to some stuff that goes on.

 

[Diana Hignutt]

Everyone knows astrophysics are supposed to wear either Flash or Green Lantern tee shirts....

 

[regdog]

 

[Don]

After considerable considerate consideration, I'd like to request of the mods that we be supplied with a "First World Problem" (or "White Whine") emoticon, a "Get Over It" emoticon, and a "Haters Gotta Hate" emoticon.

Thank you for your considerable considerate consideration.

 

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

I went to the quilter site TWICE - hit BOTH links - and couldn't find one damn fabric covered with men in kilts.

I am butthurt.

Where do I complain?

 

[Amadan]

I think people need to wrap their heads around the idea that the reflexive screaming outrage cohort on Twitter is not a "constituency" and should be ignored.

 

[Don]

Over at Richochet.com, they ask a snarky question.

When Did the Left Turn into Rick Santorum?

 

[Devil Ledbetter]

The phrase, "clueless in general" for anything outside his work comes to mind.

Well, it was a speech given related to his work, so that qualifies as clueless at work, too.

I don't think the shirt is sexist, per se, as it's, you know, a shirt.

However, I do get the basic 'the guy is speaking to the world, from a place and field with few women, that's trying to involve more, and he does it clad in a shirt festooned with half-nude cartoon women with giant boobs and inhuman bodies,' problem people had.

It has a 'c'mon women, don't you want to go work with him? No? Why? / Girls, this person is a role model of intellectual achievement, speaking to the world; aren't you inspired? Sigh.' vibe.

I couldn't agree more.

As for an equivalent shirt (or dress?) for a woman, I just saw a Twitter link to this perhaps-NSFW "beefcake" fabric:
http://mochimochiland.com/2008/03/male-stripper-fabric/

I went to the quilter site TWICE - hit BOTH links - and couldn't find one damn fabric covered with men in kilts.

I am butthurt.

Where do I complain?

They sell this line of fabrics at Fabric Fair in Bay City, Michigan. I have a couple of them with plans to make some silly (sexist?) aprons for my sisters if I ever get around to it.

 

[Toothpaste]

I really enjoy this woman's response (she used to work in pornography, so is quite familiar with the concept of women as sex objects):

Women in our culture, in case you haven’t noticed, are routinely reduced to purely sexual beings. We are routinely treated as if our brains, our talent, our imagination, our inspiration, are useless and trivial unless they’re applied to sex and sexual attractiveness. And the sexist treatment of women in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) is legendary, and very thoroughly documented.

So doing an interview about your team’s big science achievement while wearing a shirt with scantily-clad pinup girls does not say, “Sex is awesome!” It says, “Women are for sex.” It says, “Every woman working on this project, every woman working on a similar project, every woman working in STEM, every woman aspiring to work in STEM — this is what I think of you. Every girl dreaming of working in STEM someday — this is what I’ll think of you when you’re grown up. Tits and ass. That’s what you are to me.” And every one of Taylor’s colleagues and bosses, every person on the TV crew, who saw that shirt and didn’t say, “Dude, not cool” — every one of them said to all those women and girls, “Yeah, this is the norm in this field. If you decide to work here, this is what you’ll be running into — day after day after day after day after day. Get used to it, or get the hell out.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/...ains-why-the-science-guys-shirt-crash-landed/


.
Again I don't think this issue is a huge one, and I still don't believe the scientist deserved to be attacked. But I don't think this is a complete non-issue either. It's all about context. And as we discussed a great deal in the cat calling thread, it's about a culmination of things, not just the one thing. A man in the STEM field wearing a shirt covered with half naked women as decoration for a professional event is not just some dude wearing a neat shirt.

Anyway, the man has apologised, and I don't believe in beating a dead horse. It's over and done with, let's move on. I only posted this response because I didn't like how completely dismissive people in this thread were being, like the only reason anyone would get marginally annoyed by this shirt would be because they are overreacting and like to get all frothy over nothing. I just wanted to point out that maybe the people who don't love that he wore this shirt also consist of reasonable logical people who see it for the systemic sexism it is, but still don't think the guy should be vilified.

 

[robeiae]

The lady friend of his who made him the shirt is pretty upset about the whole thing too. Obviously she didn't see anything wrong with the fabric of cartoon ladies.

Philae Lander: One Small Step for Science, One Giant Sexist Shirt for Mankind?

All I can think of now is the puffy shirt.

 

[Devil Ledbetter]

Anyway, the man has apologised, and I don't believe in beating a dead horse. It's over and done with, let's move on. I only posted this response because I didn't like how completely dismissive people in this thread were being, like the only reason anyone would get marginally annoyed by this shirt would be because they are overreacting and like to get all frothy over nothing. I just wanted to point out that maybe the people who don't love that he wore this shirt also consist of reasonable logical people who see it for the systemic sexism it is, but still don't think the guy should be vilified.

The thread title certainly takes the dismissive frothy over nothing approach.

Wearing a shirt like that takes a buttload of male privilege and the arrogance to shamelessly flaunt it. Doing so especially while giving an important scientific speech warrants critique.

 

[shadowwalker]

Well, as a female who's gone face to face with businesses for their discriminatory/sexist help wanted signs, I didn't find it anything other than an inappropriate shirt to wear to a serious function - just as I would find a shirt of any cartoon characters to be inappropriate. I wouldn't say people were over-reacting, but are focussing on the wrong things. JMO.

 

[Toothpaste]

That's fine. But utterly dismissing people who DO find it sexist and discriminatory as over reacting isn't appropriate either. I'm not overreacting. I'm barely reacting. This thread is the only place on the internet I've even discussed this. I just don't like the fact that wearing half naked women as decoration on a shirt in a professional context is seen as something not to really say, "Um, that's inappropriate and mildly sexist" to.

As I said before, I think the ridiculous attacking of the mob on Twitter etc is absurd and makes it actually harder to have a sincere conversation about systemic -isms of any kind. People will see anyone who goes, "Uh, not cool" as part of the same group of people who take great glee in destroying someone and making them feel horrible. But me saying, "Bad form" does not make me one of those people, it doesn't mean I think the scientist is a bad person, it doesn't mean I'm not upset to see how hurt people have made him, but nor should I be scared to say "bad form" just because some people will accuse me of being too PC or a SJW (btw, I LOVE the term Social Justice Warrior. Damn right I am! I'm friggin' Xena!).

 

[Vince524]

I get that the shirt wasn't the right one to wear at this time, but go to this dude's twitter account. He doesn't seem like a guy with a suit and tie kind of wardrobe. And it's stretching things, IMHO, to say that his attitude is dismissive of women in science.

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I get that the shirt wasn't the right one to wear at this time, but go to this dude's twitter account. He doesn't seem like a guy with a suit and tie kind of wardrobe. And it's stretching things, IMHO, to say that his attitude is dismissive of women in science.

It's not that most people think he's actively dismissive of women in science. But the fact that it didn't register to him that this shirt might not be the most appropriate thing to wear for a national(world?) TV appearance does suggest some things about STEM culture that aren't the most appealing. Like, it's a tiny straw in the pile of sexism, but that doesn't mean it can't be the straw that broke the camel's back for someone.

Much like toothpaste, I haven't gone on an internet crusade against this guy, and in fact have not discussed it outside this thread.


Something I don't necessarily find sexist but do find weird are the constant references to his wardrobe. A major scientist with an important agency can't afford one nice shirt to wear to press conferences? Bullshit. He didn't grab whatever was at the top of his clean laundry basket. He chose to wear this particular shirt. Not to be intentionally sexist. But he chose it in particular. At least according to the friend who gave it to him. The only wardrobe excuse would be if he only had shirts with half-naked women on them. In which case I would have to revise my opinion on his opinion towards women.

 

[Amadan]

Much like toothpaste, I haven't gone on an internet crusade against this guy, and in fact have not discussed it outside this thread.

Well, that's the problem. Reasonable people can agree that it was probably an inappropriate shirt to wear for an internationally televised TV interview. But unreasonable people are the ones calling for his head on Twitter and forcing him to make a groveling apology for fear that his job might be endangered.

Also, this whole "professional attire" thing ignores the fact that for a lot of people (particularly engineers, programmers, and the like), T-shirts with your favorite games, comic characters, whatever, are pretty standard professional attire.

 

[noranne]

Is this shirt horrendously sexist? No. But that's the point. These small signs to women that they are unwelcome are present a LOT in STEM fields. And if you oppose them, you're viewed as a joyless fraud who can't take a joke, who overreacts. You may receive rape and/or death threats. And because it's so minor, the perpetrators often don't even realize it. Like I am sure this guy is a decent dude, I really doubt he is out to deter women from his field, but it adds to the list of micro-aggressions that can be f'ing exhausting to deal with.

Do I think he is a terrible person who ought to be castigated forever? No. Do I think that shirt adds to an unfriendly environment for women? Yes. And someone closer to him should have pointed that out--but they didn't, so Twitter did.

And please, if you use "SJW" as an insult, take a second to think about what you're complaining about (people who care too much about others).

 

[Vince524]

It's not that most people think he's actively dismissive of women in science. But the fact that it didn't register to him that this shirt might not be the most appropriate thing to wear for a national(world?) TV appearance does suggest some things about STEM culture that aren't the most appealing. Like, it's a tiny straw in the pile of sexism, but that doesn't mean it can't be the straw that broke the camel's back for someone.

Much like toothpaste, I haven't gone on an internet crusade against this guy, and in fact have not discussed it outside this thread.


Something I don't necessarily find sexist but do find weird are the constant references to his wardrobe. A major scientist with an important agency can't afford one nice shirt to wear to press conferences? Bullshit. He didn't grab whatever was at the top of his clean laundry basket. He chose to wear this particular shirt. Not to be intentionally sexist. But he chose it in particular. At least according to the friend who gave it to him. The only wardrobe excuse would be if he only had shirts with half-naked women on them. In which case I would have to revise my opinion on his opinion towards women.

I don't know if it's a can't afford as much as doesn't own and he doesn't strike me as a guy who thought too much about it. His GF made the shirt for him, and he liked it and wanted to show it off.

My birthday shirt (not suit!) from @ellypriZeMaN @EternalArtEssex is at work today! helping @ESA_Rosetta in any way!

As you can see by a lot of responses, not everyone sees the shirt as sexist. I doubt he did, and neither did his GF who made it and gave it to him. He didn't look at it and think hey, people might see this in a way I don't."

I don't think his wearing of the shirt reads much into the STEM culture, just that he didn't see it as a problem. He didn't see it that way and clearly, neither does the girl who made it for him.

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Well, that's the problem. Reasonable people can agree that it was probably an inappropriate shirt to wear for an internationally televised TV interview. But unreasonable people are the ones calling for his head on Twitter and forcing him to make a groveling apology for fear that his job might be endangered.

Well, considering I haven't exactly felt the love for a reasoned critique on AW, I can't say I blame reasonable people for not wanting to wade into the #shitstorm that is Twitter.

Like, I seriously toned down my critique on here after seeing the responses from the majority of posters. I've tweeted about similar stuff in the past, and I can say the the response on there is a million times worse. I've given up trying to have rational conversations on Twitter. I'm sure many people feel the same.

Also, this whole "professional attire" thing ignores the fact that for a lot of people (particularly engineers, programmers, and the like), T-shirts with your favorite games, comic characters, whatever, are pretty standard professional attire.

I mean, a comic-book shirt might be appropriate professional attire for a a comic-book writer to wear to a con panel. But this guy is a scientist working for the European Space Agency. Does he need a suit and tie? No. At least wear a shirt with glowing green atoms on it, or quasars or something. Yeesh.

 

[Amadan]

STEM fields, from universities to private and government employers, have been falling over themselves to recruit women for decades now. You will find very few career fields in which anywhere near as much is done to promote diversity and awareness of gender issues (among others).

Obviously, there still exist misogynists, and sexist comments and inappropriate behavior in engineering, programming, IT, etc. happens.

But I laugh at the idea that your average programmer or engineer or data scientist is more sexist than your average banker, wall street broker, insurance salesman, cop, soldier, paramedic, firefighter, taxi driver, truck driver, auto mechanic, plumber, garbage man, construction worker, pilot, farmer...

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I don't know if it's a can't afford as much as doesn't own and he doesn't strike me as a guy who thought too much about it. His GF made the shirt for him, and he liked it and wanted to show it off.

As you can see by a lot of responses, not everyone sees the shirt as sexist. I doubt he did, and neither did his GF who made it and gave it to him. He didn't look at it and think hey, people might see this in a way I don't."

I don't think his wearing of the shirt reads much into the STEM culture, just that he didn't see it as a problem. He didn't see it that way and clearly, neither does the girl who made it for him.

Thanks, Vince. I'm aware of the provenance of the shirt, but I do appreciate you mentioning it three times after I've already addressed the issue in this very thread.

The fact that he never considered that a shirt full of half-naked women might not be appropriate for a government agency broadcast is in fact half the problem I'm talking about. The fact that nobody else thought to suggest he change clothes is another part of it.

 

[Vince524]

Thanks, Vince. I'm aware of the provenance of the shirt, but I do appreciate you mentioning it three times after I've already addressed the issue in this very thread.

The fact that he never considered that a shirt full of half-naked women might not be appropriate for a government agency broadcast is in fact half the problem I'm talking about. The fact that nobody else thought to suggest he change clothes is another part of it.

You're welcome!

Probably never occurred to them because it was Matt, their pal. Like I said, I'm not saying it's not worthy of a cringe and a "Dude, you couldn't find a better shirt?" But at the same time, I think the reaction is just way overboard.

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

You're welcome!

Probably never occurred to them because it was Matt, their pal. Like I said, I'm not saying it's not worthy of a cringe and a "Dude, you couldn't find a better shirt?" But at the same time, I think the reaction is just way overboard.

I mean, the people who were calling for him to get fired or whatever have more extreme views on the issue than I do. I think a PR person telling him to change his shirt would have been enough. Or, like, a tweeted apology, since he did end up wearing it. Certainly forcing him into a tearful apology on world television is more than I would consider reasonable.

 

[shadowwalker]

Most likely he and the other people (male and female) around him were more concerned about, y'know, the science thing...