Melanie Mills

[Malemotives]

Re: Agents ... and other stuff

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1. A writer should never pay an agent an upfront fee. If an agent charges any kind of reading fee, database setup, website costs, etc., a writer should run.

2. Most agents will recoup postage, copying, etc. when they make a sale. it will be deducted from the advance/royalties. the postage/copies, etc. are the responsibility of the writer, but not necessarily up front.

3. Agents make money off the sale, not off the writer.

i hope that this proves helpful.<hr></blockquote>

Thank you for the reply, but it's still a bit vague. Maybe more concrete support for your (and other's) stand would help the budding writer.

... a writer should run. Why? And why then are all writers not running? I mean, that sounds like a great bargain to me .... I write a book, call an Agent and bypass any expense for a database, website, reading, prepromotion, submission, etc... lots of bucks. I pay only if the Agent gets me a contract. I can see getting by with such expections if I have a solid 'published' credentials ... but I have to wonder if many who amble, unsuccessfully, through the motions seeking that first taste of success might not wander aimlessly without some compromise. Just my thoughts.

I can understand objecting to a reading fee. Even many lawyers will give x free time to determine if they want to take a case. Their pay only if they win cases are far and few in-between, and usually slamdunk.

Although, I think if I were seeking to get published, at some point, probably before soliciting an Agent, I would not be opposed to paying some competent professional to read the manuscript and provide an in-depth assessment, other than critiques from friends and family.

Am I missing something important here?

2. Most agents will recoup postage, copying, etc. when they make a sale. it will be deducted from the advance/royalties. the postage/copies, etc. are the responsibility of the writer, but not necessarily up front.

So, at least that part of my understanding is correct? The idea is to have someone finance the publishing process who will eat the loss if my work just won't sell?

 

[emeraldcite]

Re: Agents ... and other stuff

... a writer should run. Why? And why then are all writers not running?

a number of writers don't realize they're being scammed in the first place. for example, agent Smith charges fees (reading fees, editorial fees, database, whatever he can make up). what encourages him to submit at all?

let's do a little math: let's just say that this is agent Smith's invoice:

1. Reading fee: $25.
2. Editorial fee: $500-10,000 (you'd be surprised. if the agent doesn't offer to do it 'in house,' he/she may refer you to an independent editor who gives the agent a kickback for referrals)
3. Postage/copying: in excess of $100. (who's to say that the agent is sending it out)

so, imagine scamming 100 writers. you return them the standard form rejection from a publishing house and continue to collect fees. you're making an ungodly sum of money. some writers will leave after they tap out, but there's an endless line of wannabes out there who have no idea what to expect. So, you have a business that continues on until someone shuts you down for scamming.

think of it this way: you bleed $1000 from a writer over a year. multiply that by 50 writers. that's a comfortable living.

I would not be opposed to paying some competent professional to read the manuscript and provide an in-depth assessment, other than critiques from friends and family

this is a fine route, just make sure you're dealing with a professional. However, many solid agents have 'in house' editors that will go over the manuscript. Also, the publisher has editors who will do the same. the point is, agents are as hard to come by as publisher. they will only invest their time in books that they are confident will sell. they look for those in it for a career, someone they can work with in a lucrative business partnership for many years to come. it's like getting married.

The idea is to have someone finance the publishing process who will eat the loss if my work just won't sell?

the point is that agents can afford to be picky. they will only pick up stuff they are confident they can sell.

Everyone's investing here. you invest the time to write, rewrite, query, etc. you will continue making an agent money as long as you are producing quality material that people will read. the agent, if they cannot sell your book and see no future with you as a client, may recommend moving on.

generally, the advice is that if an agent wants money from you other than legitimate costs incurred (some will ask for the postage/copying when it is completed), then they are a scammer out to get your money, not sell your work.

 

[reph]

Agents

Malemotives, to simplify the discussion even further, an "agent" who charges you a fee up front isn't even going to try to sell your book. That person is in business to collect fees from writers, not to represent their work to publishers.

 

[Malemotives]

agents continued ...

Well gee, Emeraldcite ...

My inquiries are not intended to get your dander up. You can put the 'grrrr' back in the box.

My intent is to solicit response(s) beyond the usual unsupported pat replies driven by bad experiences. It's reasonable, I think, to expect any advice giver to give support to conclusions reached.

To be sure, there are scams taking place; to be sure, caution is required. I just wonder if one attitude fits all.

Obviously writers invest a great deal of time in their projects; some can count educational and research expenses as well, and, as with any endeavor, it would be nice to reach the end game with as little additional expense as possible. Sometimes, more investment is necessary. Selective? You bet. Cautionary? Of course. But given the number of writers, on this and other websites, struggling to break into a market, inventive also seems prudent; as does paid help that provide a needed edge.

Where that help is available risk free, I don't know. Nor do I know if it is. But it can't hurt to explore. And, it can't hurt to kick around disputed opinions.

I'm not that knowledgeable with the frustrations of fiction writers struggling to be published. If I was, I'd have no questions. Obviously newbies don't have the answers, else they wouldn't be bouncing between resources. They may also not be aware of fringe costs incurred on the road to to final publishing and can easily conclude, from unsupported no no's that everyone is out to scam them (or me, although I'm not in the game).

I am more familiar with the nuances and expense of getting technical books published. As a former technical reviewer I was paid well. Someone needed to pickup the tab. Whether by way of prepay or deduction from royalties, ultimately the author foots the bill.

Point is, there is more to the end game than writing the work and dodging scam artists. A motivated writer sometimes needs to carry more weight, however uncomfortable.

But then, these is just my take; what I garner from the constant ebb and flow of differing opinions presented.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Malemotives]

Re: MM

Malemotives, to simplify the discussion even further, an "agent" who charges you a fee up front isn't even going to try to sell your book. That person is in business to collect fees from writers, not to represent their work to publishers.

Hi reph...
Does that statement unequivocally include ALL Agents who charge an up-front fee, however large or small or defined the fee might be? Period?!

 

[emeraldcite]

Re: Melanie Mills - a lesson learned

Well gee, Emeraldcite ...

My inquiries are not intended to get your dander up. You can put the 'grrrr' back in the box.

didn't get my dander up. sorry if it sounded like i was upset. just trying to clarify my answers. would a smiley help?

as to your other question: there is no all-encompassing answer for all agents. i'm sure there are a few reputable ones that may charge for something, but these would number few.

 

[Malemotives]

Re: agents

Yes... thanks.... love the smily!

as to your other question: there is no all-encompassing answer for all agents. i'm sure there are a few reputable ones that may charge for something, but these would number few.

But you see ... the above reply speak directly to my point and my problem. It's not that I'm picking on you. You just happen to be here at the moment, providing less than I'm after. As an inquirer who needs to gather facts and make comparisons, in order to reach a difinitive conclusion, vague opinion just won't do. Either there are reputable ones, that can be cited or there aren't. The above quote hints at consession. What exactly does 'would number few mean'?

If I'm being too picky, I'll hush. I've just always been one who believes that a serious question deserves a serious answer, free from bias, else research is tainted.

 

[veingloree]

Re: Agents ... and other stuff

I think it would be safe to reject all agents charging fees. A few probably literally means a few, like 3, out of the thousands of legit agents.

 

[emeraldcite]

agents

well, i don't think i'm being biased: i have been researching agents, handpicking the ones to which i want to submit. i haven't been burned by anyone. although i can't offer a concrete number of legitimate agents that may charge a fee, i can say that you're better off finding one that doesn't. there is no real blanket response, as there can not be: we're dealing with people. if this was as simple as saying don't do xyz, we wouldn't have the melanie mills thread at all.


ps

 

[emeraldcite]

Re: Agents

Either there are reputable ones, that can be cited or there aren't.

actually, it is more complicated than this.

there are basically three kinds of agents:

1. good agents.
2. bad agents.
3. scam agents.

numbers 2 and 3 are not necessarily the same thing. You only want an agent that is from group 1. good agents have a solid track record of selling material to major publishers.

bad agents can be worse than no agents at all. bad agents may have the best intentions, but they have little skill in selling material and they have no solid connections in the publishing world. they may appear to be a 'good agent,' they just lack the experience and know-how to sell anything effectively.

scam agents want your money.

and this is where it gets complicated. there is no definitive list of good, bad, and scam agents. regardless of the research you do, regardless of how much you want to simplify the matter, you have to research each agent individually in order to assess whether that particular agent is right for you.

i wasn't joking when i said it was like a marriage.

you can check the AAR (the association of Authors' Representatives), which has very specific requirements to join. Most of these agents will be legitimate:

www.aar-online.org/

the problem is, not all agents, even the most well-known legitimate ones, are members. they don't need to be; they have an A-list clientele and solid track record.

you can check Writer Beware, which is a site that has useful information on scammers.

www.sfwa.org/beware/

last but not least, you can check preditors and editors which also has a list of some good, bad, and ugly agents. but not even this list contains every possible agent out there.

www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/


also, i suggest reading victoria's articles on this thread, they are immensely helpful and may aid you in further research.

pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=348.topic

i would suggest going through the novel writing section of this board, as well as many of the bewares. you'd be surprised with how often this topic is discussed.

if you're looking for a simplifed answer, you won't find one better than run from any agent charging a fee. but still, that is not entirely accurate; however, it is the safest bet.

ps. see the ST literary agent thread on this board, there is also some excellent info there.

pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=210.topic

 

[vstrauss]

Re: Agents

Attempting to answer some of Malemotives' questions...

The basis of an author-agent relationship is a shared financial interest in the sale of the author's work. If the agent profits only when the author does, he's not only highly motivated to sell the author's work, but to get the best and most lucrative deal possible. An agent who profits upfront has less of a stake in selling, since he's already made money off the deal. It's a similar arrangement to the one between a real estate agent and someone who wants to sell their house.

A real estate agent works in an office setting that absorbs the incidental expenses involved in making a house sale. The real estate agent will incur various costs as part of the attempt to sell a specific home, but the office absorbs these as business overhead. This is possible because the office is a profitmaking enterprise, with a flow of income to offset expenses.

Same deal with a literary agent. A successful literary agent, whether she works for a larger agency or is a one-person shop, has a flow of income from book sales that allow her to finance the costs of doing business. The costs involved in submitting a client's manuscript are part of the cost of doing business, just like rent and insurance and office supplies. Instead of seeing it this way...

>>The idea is to have someone finance the publishing process who will eat the loss if my work just won't sell?<<

...look at it this way: every business takes chances and faces the risk of loss. A business that refuses to absorb the costs involved, or that can't afford to absorb them, is a business that either isn't willing or isn't able to cover its own overhead. What does that say about the business?

Once upon a time, literary agencies charged nothing back to their clients--zip, zero, nada. _All_ costs involved in submitting clients' work were absorbed by the agent as a matter of course. This is no longer true. Agents expect clients to bear some of the costs specifically involved in successfully representing them. But it's still customary for the agent to front those costs and charge them only after a sale is made.

That's an important point--that it's customary. The issue with upfront fees isn't just whether it's right or reasonable to charge them, but that successful agents (or at least the overwhelming majority of them--see below) _don't_ charge them. Among many other things, upfront fees are a marker for agents who don't follow accepted industry practice--and in a very close-knit, clubby industry, those who don't follow accepted practice are generally not part of the club, which means they aren't selling books.

Some disreputable agents will try to convince you that the costs of submission are enormous--on the order of $100 or more per month--and that's why they need to be charged upfront. Actually, the costs are not so large that they can't be comfortably absorbed by a successful agent. For the last manuscript of mine that was sent around (to eight editors over the course of about four months), my agent charged back less than $150.

>>I can understand objecting to a reading fee.<<

Actually, I think a reasonable case can be made for reading fees. Assuming a genuine, careful reading, the agent is giving a considerable amount of time that possibly, if she rejects you, will go entirely uncompensated. Why not charge something for that?

The problem with reading fees--and also with reading/evaluation fees, which include a critique--is that they are easily abused. What's to stop the agent from requesting a look at everything that comes across his desk, whether or not he's interested in it, in order to get the fee? What's to stop him from hiring some unqualified intern to write the critique, or producing an all-purpose critique that is personalized slightly and sent to everyone? These kinds of abuses are why reading and reading/evaluation fees are prohibited by the AAR.

>>Does that statement unequivocally include ALL Agents who charge an up-front fee, however large or small or defined the fee might be? Period?!<<

No. A handful of reasonably successful agents ask for upfront money. Again: a handful. By contrast, 100% of scam agents and the vast majority of amateur/incompetent/marginal agents (who, as emeraldcite said, can do you a lot more career damage than the scam ones) want upfront money. So while you can't absolutely, unequivocally say "Every agent who wants upfront money is a bad agent", you can say "Any agent who wants upfront money is overwhelmingly likely to be a bad agent". Given the very large number of reputable, successful agents who _don't_ want upfront money, it makes sense as a rule to stay away from those who do.

Unfortunately, I think that things may be changing, and in the future it may become more common for successful agents to want something upfront, or to ask clients to provide all full manuscript copies, or to do something else in the way of taking on costs that in the past were the agent's sole responsibility. But right now, upfront fee-charging is a marker for an agent you want to avoid.

The bottom line for ANY agent, anyway, is track record.

- Victoria

 

[SRHowen]

with many agents,

even good ones, with good track records, you as a first time author, can expect to pay for office costs of submitting your MS. I know Victoria is against this one, and I was as well--after all they should front those costs. But many are doing it now and it seems to be a new trend even among AAR members.

My agent has submitted to 34 publishers, full manuscripts, several overseas. So far my costs for boxes, labels, postage and MS copies comes to about $240. (That does compare to what Victoria said her office costs came to)( I also get an itemized bill so I know what each thing down to the last stamp costs) But, because this is a first book I do get a bill and have to pay within 30 days.

He did not ask for any money upfront. I get the actual letters and correspondence he has with the publishers on my behalf. He keeps me informed of what is going on with my MS at all times--several times a month, and no matter how dumb the question--he has always responded within a day or two, either via e-mail or phone call. I don't get charged for phone calls.

So why did I go with this agent?'

TRACK RECORD

I also went by who he represents.

But i also live by the rule money flows to the writer not the other way around.

You are looking for a rule of thumb, the best one to use for starting out is that one--money goes to you not the agent, period. If they ask for anything up front just to rep you--forget it. If they charge anything other than office costs incurred for mailing ms etc., and do not give you a detailed list of what their office costs are for--run. I heard of one agent charging 100 bucks for copying--unreal unless the book was a few thousand pages long. Same with postage you can check to see what it should be costing. Someone else said well MS boxes cost like 6 bucks each--I bought a package of 6 MS boxes at Staples for 6 bucks. My agent charges me 50 cents a box( obviously he has a cheaper source)

And yes, when starting out--rule out the fee charging agents--and read any contract offered carefully.

Shawn

 

[Malemotives]

... agents

My thanks to all of you for what as turned from a blanket statement into an enlightening conversation that will surely benefit those (especially newbies) entertaining the question.

The policy of up front fees is one that crosses the borders of services offered when one seeks to hire an advocate, which is part of why the simple 'pack up and run' statement bothered me.

In that vein, part of my motivation for researching the question more agressively concerns having been contacted by an agent requesting my services, as a webmaster, to promote his client(s). His proposal was that I provide the service payment pending, on the successful sale of the authors manuscript; which is similar to writers using his services pending the manuscript sale. No sale, no one gets paid.

Now, I might not be the sharpest pencil in the box, but his proposal that I could charge him above my normal rates, in return for my risk, did not strike me as prudent business on my part. A potential good risk if the author has a track record but little more than a fishing expedition otherwise. Besides, as I pointed out, if an author has a track record s/he would likely already have a website to promote her/his success and sales, or should.

My sense is that it is reasonable and prudent to say no to up front fees, but to consider, as was stated, paying reasonable invoiced costs that have been substatiated in the process of submissions throughout the process. While it would be great for starving authors/artists/etc. to have a source of good Samaritans, on-hand, to share risk it's hardly good business.

Thanks again for all the input.

MM

 

[reph]

What a deal!

This is the telling part of that agent's offer to you:

"No sale, no one gets paid."

Can you guess why he doesn't mind if you plan to charge him a higher rate than usual?

 

[Malemotives]

Re: Agents ... and other stuff: What a deal!

This is the telling part of that agent's offer to you:

"No sale, no one gets paid."

Can you guess why he doesn't mind if you plan to charge him a higher rate than usual? - reph

I can venture a couple of guesses, reph

On the one hand, since his explanation was that he makes no money unless/until he sells his client's work. That falls in line with the 'agents shouldn't charge up front or administrative fees concept'.

His offer to me was that I could make more if I would build and host websites under the same concept—better for him, better for his client, and better for me if a sale is successful. A sort of spread the risk program. Taken at face value, it might be an avenue to consider if one wants to tie up time and money based on future possibilities.

On the other hand, if I choose to put a negative face on the proposal, I could suspect that he is running a scam to get a freebie he can offer to clients to attract their business, at my expense.

Either is possible. The bottom line is that, in a business world, when there is no bottom line (negative income), businesses fail.

It's one thing to offer free gratis attractions as part of a marketing budget; it's another to gamble the house on maybes.

 

[vstrauss]

Re: Agents ... and other stuff: What a deal!

>>On the one hand, since his explanation was that he makes no money unless/until he sells his client's work. That falls in line with the 'agents shouldn't charge up front or administrative fees concept'.<<

No, it doesn't. Because an agent doesn't have just one client. If this were a successful agent, he'd have lots of clients whose work he was selling and getting paid for on a regular basis. In other words, he'd have the cash flow needed to pay you for your services.

>>On the other hand, if I choose to put a negative face on the proposal, I could suspect that he is running a scam to get a freebie he can offer to clients to attract their business, at my expense.<<

I'd say this hits closer to the mark. In fact, he's probably running the same scam on you he's running on his clients: letting them think he's got a viable business that's worth being associated with. I'll bet dollars to donuts this agent charges upfront fees.

Disreputable operators often try and offload the financial burdens that come with running a business onto someone else. I know of a publisher that pays its designers and marketers by giving them royalties on the books they work on..."spreading the risk". Problem is, this publisher is mostly selling books to its own authors--and these are royalty-free sales. So the designers and marketers are getting bupkis.

I'd be curious to know who the agent is.

- Victoria

 

[reph]

The answer

Malemotives, the right answer to "Can you guess..." is "Because he knows he's never going to pay you."

He wants a website so he can tell his clients he's offering their manuscripts to publishers on a website. But publishers don't find manuscripts by looking at websites; they have plenty of manuscripts sent to them directly. The agent's inexperienced clients will think the website increases their chances of a sale.

 

[Malemotives]

Re: Agents...The answer ???

Well.... whatever his motives, scam or no scam, my reply was a courteous thanks, but no thanks.

Doing business on speculation is, I think, dubious at best. I'd as soon give away a website and accept the good will as payment than enter into a deal that has a greater chance of leading down a bad road.

My son and daughter-in-law are visiting next week. She's a tech book author, with eight titles published. She doesn't use an agent, but perhaps would have some good feedback on the topic for me.

 

[RLD]

Reality Check

Reality Check: The harsh world of reputable agents.

When reputable agents receive submissions that are (in their opinion) not ready for market they will reject them.
When reputable agents receive submissions that are not in-line with agency needs they will reject them.
When reputable agents receive submissions that (in their opinion) are not likely to result in a sale for any reason THEY WILL REJECT THEM.

This is not difficult to understand. It applies to everyone whether they have zero books published or a hundred books published. No sale is no sale.

The rejection process can be swift and harsh. It can be a snap judgement. It can be arbitrary. It can be wrong.

From a sheer business standpoint it can also be right.

Good writing will always be good writing, but not necessarily saleable writing. When you submit to an agent you ask the following question by virtue of the submission: In your opinion is my work saleable in todayÕs market? The answer will be either yes or no. It wonÕt be perhaps or maybe. Beware of perhaps or maybe; this is often a bad sign with a price tag.

So when another agent takes on the manuscript, sells it and makes everyone concerned lots of money, was the agent(s) who rejected it guilty of bad judgement?

Probably not, because that was simply not the right agent. The wrong agent only wastes time and resources . . . yours and theirs. The right agent gets the job done.

Then how do you know who is the right agent beforehand? You donÕt. You keep trying and you keep writing. I wish there was an easier answer.

I Made the mistake of contacting Mills in 2000. She sent me a contract with a bill (which I framed). I did not bite.
Happy ending.

 

[SRHowen]

agents--

commercial fiction--that's the word or words for it.

Agents base their acceptance on it--is this commercial fiction. The writing can be great, but if it is not commercial enough, or for some reason the agent doesn't think the non-commercial elements can be weeded out or the commercial elements added--you get a rejection.

Acceptance can be just as swift.

Shawn

 

[JustinoIV]

an agent

If the agent has such a good record in sales, then he should be able to aim your manuscript at publishing companies that would like a manuscript like yours. Ideally, to publishers that he has already hooked up with good manuscripts that sold well.

 

[RottenLuckWillie]

MM

www.era.com/properties/cg...4info.html
I found this kink awhile back. I've emailed the person a couple of times with no response. It couldn't be, could it?
rlw

 

[stany2]

The Sarah Camilli Literary Agency

Does anyone know anything about the Sarah Camilli Agency? Having been scammed once by Melanie Mills, I've been hesitant about starting again with a new agent and was thinking of going the route of Independent Publishing. However, a friend of mine recommended that I contact Literary Agent Sarah Camilli and thinks very highly of her.

 

[emeraldcite]

Re: The answer

stany:

scroll up a bit and check the links i provided. i did a quick search on google and didn't come up with anything, not necessarily a good sign, but not necessarily a definitive answer either.

 

[SRHowen]

all I found was

a listing at P&E that said something like--presumed in NYC.

Shawn