St Louis County - Police Officer Fatally Shoots 18-Year-Old (Michael Brown)

[sassandgroove]

No more. Racism is ingrained into the training and procedures of the very government institutions that should be servants to the people. ALL the people. And it must stop.

can you cite this?

 

[Ambrosia]

What pattern? (this is the best I could do right now I'm at work)

The statistics quoted on those two pages do not give the information needed to show you a pattern. The statistics don't give the ratio of white to black killed by cops during a routine stop. Or when the person is unarmed. There is not enough information given in those statistics.

I have tried to look up something that will help show you what I am talking about. But I haven't found anything during a short search. So it will need to be a longer search. Perhaps Rob or someone else will have the info or find it. I am currently tired and need to go rest (recovering from a torn hamstring and pushed myself today) as I have no stamina yet. If no one steps forward with more info, I will try to do so later.

 

[Lyv]

can you cite this?

I'm going to guess he can't cite that any more than you can cite this:

I keep hearing that we should be color blind and that race doesn't matter but it's the people crying racism that make it an issue and perpetuate it.

Just sayin'.

 

[Karen Junker]

I can cite it -- give me a while to go back and look up my sources and I will post them.

Ambrosia -- I applaud you for wanting to do what you can to help. I, too, am old, disabled and not too rich. I have sent money to the ACLU of Missouri, to the national ACLU and to the Ferguson food bank, as I was able to afford it for now. What I plan to do moving forward is investigate ways I, as a writer, can become involved in conversations that may open people's eyes to the many subtle ways our society may still perpetuate racism. I believe that with dialogue can come ideas for ways to change and try to eliminate the remnants of racism. I will share with you what I find out.

 

[robjvargas]

can you cite this?

Not directly. Just its effects. Black young men and boys being told not to congregate in groups greater than three. I have the cite for that in my blog post, from CNN.

I don't think that comes from individuals behaving badly in positions of authority. That's an attitude that stems from repeated treatment at the hands of officers.

 

[robjvargas]

I agree with your post 110%, Rob.


So, what do we do? Because I am not putting up with it anymore, either.

The question is, what can I do? I don't have my health to protest. I don't have money to send to anyone to fight institutionalized racism. I'm not a political writer. What can be done?

I've had to face a kind of epiphany here, Ambrosia, and I'm not sure where I go from that.

The same people being victimized by this racism don't trust me a whole heck of a lot more than they trust the officers.

For the moment, all I can think of is for me to start recognizing where this institutional racism is happening and calling it out for what it is. Do you see store employees following the black shoppers? Call it out.

And record it. Be a witness. And a reporter.

But that feels like so little.

Nighttimer? Ideas for us white folks wanting to help turn the tide?

 

[Karen Junker]

Here is an article from Wikipedia on Institutional Racism -- there are links in the article to source material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Here's the Wikipedia entry on the breakdown of races in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity

Here's the article previously posted that shows the breakdown by race of people arrested in the US in 2011:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

So, for example, Whites are 72.4% of the US population, yet are arrested for only 69.2% of crime.

Minorities are 27.6% of the population, yet are arrested for 30.8% of crime.

I personally do not believe that this is always because minorities are committing more crime -- though there are criminology theories that suggest that there is more evidence that crime is higher based on economic and class status rather than strictly on race -- but in the US, minorities are more likely to live in poverty, have less education, etc.

But we live in a country where everyone who has the gumption can get a job or an education or be president, right? All you have to do is read the comments by the people who are sending money to support Officer Wilson on that GoFundMe campaign (unless they've removed all of them by now) and you can see that racism is alive and well -- and those people are/may be business owners, landlords, members of the acceptance committees of universities, medical professionals, and so on.

Mike Brown's death may not have been an intentional racist act. But it is easy to see why people who have been oppressed for hundreds of years and who know that they are more likely to be arrested, jailed or die at the hands of police might assume that it could be.

 

[Xelebes]

Hm, some of those stats are interesting.

The crimes blacks get arrested disproportionately less:

DUI

That's the only one I see.

 

[Karen Junker]

Xelebes -- the lower DUI stats may be due to the fact that minorities are much, much less likely to own a car. Here is a study that talks about that: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~raphael/BerubeDeakenRaphael.pdf

 

[Xelebes]

Xelebes -- the lower DUI stats may be due to the fact that minorities are much, much less likely to own a car. Here is a study that talks about that: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~raphael/BerubeDeakenRaphael.pdf

*molar click*

 

[slhuang]

I just don't see this pattern. I don't understand why people are so quick to believe the narrative and assume the black person who died is innocent simply because he's black and are so quick to assume the cop is in the wrong. They keep saying they want justice. But justice is blind. Justice is innocent until proven guilty. Justice is weighing all the evidence. [...] I keep hearing that we should be color blind and that race doesn't matter but it's the people crying racism that make it an issue and perpetuate it.

(bold mine)

No.

You may not realize this, but most anti-racism advocates are vocal in saying we should NOT be colorblind (and do NOT say race doesn't matter). Being colorblind would be excellent if there were no institutional racism in society -- it would be perfect -- but the fact is that we DO have a lot of racism still, and being colorblind means willfully ignoring it, which is a huge problem.

It's nice to say that justice is blind. It should be. But the fact is, it isn't. Look up the numbers for what penalties black people vs. white people get for the exact same crimes. Look at the difference in penalties for demographically-linked crimes (crack vs. cocaine is a big one). The New York stop-and-frisk program stopped and frisked more African-American people than live in New York* -- we seriously think 100 percent of black people are suspicious? SERIOUSLY?!

* I mean, I suspect this means they were stopping the same black folk more than once, but still, seriously?!

Getting stopped for "driving while black" is a well-known phenomenon, as is being followed around stores by security guards because you're black, or, hell, being stopped shoveling the snow on your own driveway because you're black. I don't know if anyone's compiled statistics for all officer-involved shootings -- you'd have to look at equivalent crimes where the cops de-escalated as well, heck, Bundy and Aurora both come to mind as heavily-armed (and in the latter case already tragically violent and murderous) white folk who weren't shot at the scene, incidentally -- but I'd be shocked if somehow the police managed to preferentially suspect black folk in every other arena and somehow didn't have a bias when it came to using deadly force.

Oh, yeah, and in Ferguson in particular? There was a statistic floating around about how police were stopping and searching vastly more black people, despite the fact that a greater percentage of white people who were stopped were being found with contraband.

And, to be fair to the police -- though I DO hold them to a higher standard, especially when they are SHOOTING GUNS AT CITIZENS AND KILLING THEM -- this likely happens not because police are somehow more racist as a whole, but because society is racist. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's not shocking to me that police have unconscious racism affecting them, because so many people do. What we really NEED is a way to train that out of police so that they go out to protect & serve in as unbiased a way as possible. I don't know how that would be done, but it's important. You can't be pointing guns at folk without doing your damnedest to take all that out of play.

And yes, society is racist. It's not "the people crying racism" who make it so. Check out the long, long list of movies Hollywood has whitewashed, for instance. And look up those prosecution/penalty statistics I mentioned. And oh hey, microaggressions. What happens when a woman cosplays while black, or when a picture on a proposed currency bill is deemed to look too Asian? And here's my favorite study: White men WITH a criminal record are more likely to be called in for job interviews than black men WITHOUT one: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/14/race-criminal-background-and-employment/ Seriously how is this not a problem.

(These are just the links I thought of off the top of my head, btw. Don't have time to look up new stuff right now.)

People crying racism don't make it exist. It exists.

 

[robjvargas]

I just don't see this pattern. I don't understand why people are so quick to believe the narrative and assume the black person who died is innocent simply because he's black and are so quick to assume the cop is in the wrong. They keep saying they want justice. But justice is blind. Justice is innocent until proven guilty. Justice is weighing all the evidence.

Sass, I defended the police who shot the knife wielder, Powell.

This is about more than going one way. As I said previously, I haven't always thought this way.

I've seen the black shoppers followed by loss prevention people. I had a cop pass me by to stick himself behind the black driver in front of me (actually, a driver and two passengers).

I could go on, but it's all anecdotal. It's not a trend. And yet I can't unsee what I see. And then I read that CNN article. That's NOTHING like people facing Boko Haram in Africa, or ISIS in Iraq, or any of perhaps dozens of corrupt regimes around the world.

But it *is* corruption. And it *is* mistreatment of our citizens. And it *is* time to stop.

Well past time, actually.

 

[Captcha]

What pattern? (this is the best I could do right now I'm at work)
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...e-u.s.-2011/persons-arrested/persons-arrested http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4943I'll do the math, and this includes deaths other than shootings so... that is 6 years of data, 4800 divided by 6 is 800 a year. Assuming the 12 million is average for each year as well, that is .006% of arrests that result in death. I just don't see this pattern. I don't understand why people are so quick to believe the narrative and assume the black person who died is innocent simply because he's black and are so quick to assume the cop is in the wrong. They keep saying they want justice. But justice is blind. Justice is innocent until proven guilty. Justice is weighing all the evidence. Not making up a narrative and making assumptions before anything is really known about a situation. And where is the outrage for all the people being shot in Chicago, or other big cities on a daily basis? Where is the outrage when a black cop shoots a white person, or when a black person shoots a black person, or when a white person shoots a white person or when a brown person shoots a brown person, when a HUMAN SHOOTS A HUMAN? I keep hearing that we should be color blind and that race doesn't matter but it's the people crying racism that make it an issue and perpetuate it. The riots continue not because of people in Ferguson but because of outside people using the people of Ferguson and using the Brown family for their own purposes. I just don't get it.

I'm not sure I understand your first argument - are you saying that 800 people killed by police in a year isn't a problem? That seems... well, that seems really off base, to me. Assuming your number is correct, I think it's a HUGE damn problem.

And then are you arguing that there's no racial connection to who gets shot? Check out the numbers reported at http://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/605104...led-police-statistics-homicide-official-black .

13% of the US population is black, apparently. 42% of victims SHOT BY POLICE WHEN THE VICTIMS WERE NOT ATTACKING were black.

And then look at the chart below that one, and look at the AGES of the victims. So many of these people, especially the black ones, weren't men when they died, they were still boys.

I haven't heard anti-racism activists argue that we should be colour blind. I've heard people wish that we COULD be, but I don't think anyone involved in this issue in any serious way is naive enough to think that we can.

 

[robjvargas]

I haven't heard anti-racism activists argue that we should be colour blind. I've heard people wish that we COULD be, but I don't think anyone involved in this issue in any serious way is naive enough to think that we can.

Well... I argue that we *can*.

But we certainly haven't.

IMO, of course.

 

[Karen Junker]

This is going a bit off topic, but I believe that being color blind isn't always a good thing. I think it's nice when people can celebrate their culture and their heritage and their differences.

Also, in one of the articles listing stats I posted, there was a stat that 50% of babies being born in the US now are of mixed race.

And because I was reading this and found it interesting -- and in no way do I mean to imply that being white is bad or being privileged is bad -- privilege is a good thing and to be cherished, but I do think it's good for me as an individual to look at ways I may not realize other people are less privileged than me, and for me to try to change that somehow -- make a difference for the better: http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

 

[Captcha]

Well... I argue that we *can*.

But we certainly haven't.

IMO, of course.

Yeah, sorry, I meant we can't in the current culture, not can't EVER.

 

[Karen Junker]

The GoFundMe campaign for support of officer Wilson was apparently started by the public affairs officer of the FPD. Link to follow -- site is crashed at the moment.

metafilter.com/142029/Escalating-Tensions-in-Ferguson-Missouri#5699301

 

[sassandgroove]

I'm not sure I understand your first argument - are you saying that 800 people killed by police in a year isn't a problem? That seems... well, that seems really off base, to me. Assuming your number is correct, I think it's a HUGE damn problem.

And then are you arguing that there's no racial connection to who gets shot? Check out the numbers reported at http://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/605104...led-police-statistics-homicide-official-black .

13% of the US population is black, apparently. 42% of victims SHOT BY POLICE WHEN THE VICTIMS WERE NOT ATTACKING were black.

And then look at the chart below that one, and look at the AGES of the victims. So many of these people, especially the black ones, weren't men when they died, they were still boys.

I haven't heard anti-racism activists argue that we should be colour blind. I've heard people wish that we COULD be, but I don't think anyone involved in this issue in any serious way is naive enough to think that we can.

I'm not making arguments, I'm asking questions which most have answered which I appreciate. No I don't think it's good 800 people died in the arrest process. I don't want anyone to die. I'm pointing out that statistically it's low and asked where a pattern was which again has been answered. The news source I hear is a different pov then y'all and I didn't know some of this. So please don't put words in my mouth when I'm trying to understand a different pov.
Eta I also never said there was no racial connection. I asked why it was assumed before anyone had any facts. That's all.

 

[Karen Junker]

It's not my job to moderate, but I am a born busybody, so I'll just say this and the mods can delete it if they see fit:

Sass -- you asked a question. Captcha answered with a couple of questions. In a debate (even a friendly one) a question is a type of 'argument' -- all that means is that something is said in an attempt to persuade someone of something. I don't think it was meant to put words in your mouth, but asked to clarify what you were saying or to confirm what was inferred about your position.

 

[Ambrosia]

Here is a link to an article where a former Marine explains the weapons of war being used in Ferguson by the police department.

A Former Marine Explains All The Weapons Of War

Why do we allow tear gas to be used on U.S. citizens when it is outlawed for use in combat? I don't get it.

It was very heartbreaking to see what these people went through, even being gassed in their own back yards.

 

[nighttimer]

Elsewhere in America, another kid gets shot in Chicago.

The story of Antonio Smith is a short one. After all, he was only nine years old. He wasn't a celebrity. He accomplished no great deeds. He made no enduring mark on the world.

Then again, most nine year old kids don't. They're real busy just being kids.

Until someone takes their life. Then they're a statistic.

Antonio lived a short life. He died a quick and violent death.

CHICAGO (WLS) --Antonio Smith, 9, was fatally shot in the Greater Grand Crossing neighborhood, his family told Eyewitness News Wednesday night.

The victim's relatives made a plea to the shooter, who remains at large on Wednesday night.

"He was just a child, just a baby, still had a whole life ahead of him. And like, why? Just a child," said Kenya Eggleston, victim's cousin.

Smith was shot multiple times in the chest around 4 p.m. Wednesday in the 1200-block of East 71st Street.

"At first I didn't know if they were really shots or not. I just heard pop, pop, pop, pop, pow. So I just kept doing what I was doing," said Dave West, neighbor.

"It hurts my heart, really, to see the young kids just, just killing each other. And school is getting ready to start," said Robert Blake, neighbor.

School's out for Antonio Smith. Forever.

There are no protests. Al and Jesse aren't in the streets. Reporters aren't tripping all over each other to stick yet another hot mic under another agitated person's mouth hoping they'll say something raw and juicy.

When he was running for his life whose name did Antonio call? His mother? God? Did he scream for help or plead for mercy? Too many kids like Antonio have survived birth only to be killed by a hard life where there's no mercy, no forgiveness, and no pity. Too many of us are just like Mr. West. We hear "pop, pop, pop, pop, pow" and since it's not us we go back to what we were doing.

After all, what's the big deal? Antonio was a nobody. He wasn't popped by a White cop (unlikely). He got done in by somebody who probably looked a lot like him (more likely).

It's just another dead Black kid. Life ended. Promise snuffed out. The mean streets claim another one. You know the routine. Roll out the yellow tape. Mark where the body fell. Shuffle the paper. Record the name. Bury 'em, forget 'em and keep it moving. Tomorrow is another day and tomorrow is Friday which in Chicago means the start of the weekend and a fresh supply of dead and wounded mostly Black bodies ready to be stacked, packed, body-bagged and toe-tagged.

We've become desensitized to dead kids. A cop killing a brother isn't rare, but brothers killing brothers over is common. As a people we've become adept at coming up with ways to divert our attention from the slaughter in our streets.

America doesn't notice anymore. It can barely tear itself away from its petty partisan politics, worthless entertainments and minor amusement to pay attention to just another dead kid face down in the street or staring sightlessly up at the sky.

Wonder why it is we as Black people care so much when a killer cop guns us down and care so little when a killer who looks like us does the same thing? Does Black life only matter when its taken by a White man?

I'd prefer it wasn't so, but I think I'd be lying to myself.

 

[robjvargas]

He had a name, NT. He had a life. Someone out there looked at a nine-year-old boy and considered him a target.

For what?

I want to go into those neighborhoods and scream that they're killing each other faster than the cops can keep up.

But the ones that need to hear it, they wouldn't listen to me.

I don't know what to do. So I'm left in my suburb, safe (relatively), but powerless.

I'd setup a barbeque for you all, but that would violate the three-black-men rule, wouldn't it?

 

[shelleyo]

Does Black life only matter when its taken by a White man?

Of course not. But you've got a white cop who gunned down a black teenager in the street, widespread vilification of that teenager to justify it, the revelation that he shot the boy six times, militarized cops tear-gassing people and arresting journalists to keep things from getting out, and clear racial divides. There's no way that doesn't get a ton of attention. People were holding vigils and peacefully protesting what happened, as is their right to. They should do it. What happened just can't be allowed to pass. That kind of thing, and of course the problems caused when police moved in with their riot gear, is going to get attention.

What happened to the 9-year-old is tragic and horrific. But it's a murder, likely a private citizen killing a kid. Deplorable, and I hope the killer is caught and put away. But I'm not sure how people protesting the--let's call it what it was--assassination of a young black man by a man with law enforcement authority behind him getting national attention can be turned around to be something that says that they only count if killed by a white man.

 

[Captcha]

I'm not making arguments, I'm asking questions which most have answered which I appreciate. No I don't think it's good 800 people died in the arrest process. I don't want anyone to die. I'm pointing out that statistically it's low and asked where a pattern was which again has been answered. The news source I hear is a different pov then y'all and I didn't know some of this. So please don't put words in my mouth when I'm trying to understand a different pov.
Eta I also never said there was no racial connection. I asked why it was assumed before anyone had any facts. That's all.

You asked two questions, both of which I read as rhetorical. The rest of your post was statements. My response also had two questions, and I assume those questions are the parts where you thought I was 'putting words in your mouth' - so it seems like you DO understand about rhetorical questions, at least when other people use them.

Your post closed with:

I keep hearing that we should be color blind and that race doesn't matter but it's the people crying racism that make it an issue and perpetuate it. The riots continue not because of people in Ferguson but because of outside people using the people of Ferguson and using the Brown family for their own purposes. I just don't get it.​

which is inflammatory nonsense. And certainly doesn't seem to fit your apparent dislike of people making assumptions without facts.

Coming on and expressing a genuine lack of understanding is great, but your post didn't feel like that - it felt like you were trying to make a point and using your "lack of understanding" as a rhetorical tool. Coming back and saying that you don't get your news from the same sources as the rest of us is just weird - you clearly have access to the internet, and to this thread, which has had plenty of links in it.

I don't want to scare you off - I think it's good that you're trying to understand different perspectives. But posting something inflammatory and then playing the victim when people disagree isn't a fair tool in a discussion.

 

[Captcha]

Interesting article about British police responses: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/0...-with-a-knife-without-shooting-to-kill-video/

It shows them tasering a guy with a knife rather than shooting him. Not a direct parallel to the Powell case, but I was fascinated by how rarely British police fire their guns. The stats for England and Wales are reported at http://www.channel4.com/news/police-fatal-shooting-trigger-happy-fact-check and show that in those two areas, total police weapons firing was:

2008-2011 - 18 times (9 fatalities)
2011/12 - 5 times (2 fatalities)
2012/13 - don't know how many shots, but no fatalities

And just as interestingly, they seem to have a central body that keeps track of these incidents (http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/research_stats/Deaths_Report2012-13.pdf) unlike the American example.

There were about 59 million people in England and Wales in 2012, so it might be fair to multiply their stats by 5 or so to compare to the US numbers.

To me, the contrast is fascinating. And I've got to say, the UK government is the one that comes off looking like it's trying to HELP its citizens, while the US government looks like it's trying to CONTROL its people.

Other countries? German police fired 85 bullets total in 2011, injuring 15 and killing 6 people. http://rt.com/usa/us-germany-85-shots-022/ - Germany had about 80 million people in 2011. This article pointed out several incidents in which American police used more bullets than this on a single suspect.


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