The Bouncy Castle in Space

MsJudy

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Yay for Joy! If it's a variation of the query letter you posted recently, I'm not surprised you got requests so quickly. Best of luck with it!

Kitty--kids that age (K-3rd) are just ghouls. We think they're all sweet and innocent, but every class I've ever had has included kids with that kind of grisly imagination. The PC thing, of course, is for us teachers to encourage them to tone down the gruesome details, but... Then the stories are boring!
 

playground

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Congrats Joy! That's a great sign!

On a side note, I can finally use this thread for what it was made for: celebrating. So it's been close to three weeks since my ex broke up with me and I can confidently say I'm past the whole, "the world is over phase." I still think about her and still think we'll get back together, but it isn't flooding my mind and ruining my days.

I've been able to start writing/editing again which is great and I plan to go on some fun dates (nothing serious and the girls will know this) and keep hanging out with my college buddies every weekend. While it sucks being single (I do truly love this girl) I'll take it as a chance to live life a little and enjoy my youth. I was too focused on all my plans for my future, so it's nice to know I'm going to get a chance to enjoy my early 20's.

Thanks for everyone for such great advice and I'm sorry I was as much fun as a sour patch kid and warhead put together!
 

heza

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Great news, playground_king. That's the best way to get over a life change--focus on all the other great things the change frees up for you.
 

Morrell

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I don't know from whence came all the people taking off their own heads, dinosaur-on-dinosaur gun crime, fist fights, gory crayon drawings, and road kill restaurant menus. All in grades K-3. What is up with that?

:roll:I particularly like the well-researched eskimo with the genie lamp. I wonder what he wished for.

P-King, I'm glad you are feeling more positive about the situation, and delighted to hear that you're planning some fun stuff!
 

Britwriter

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Good for you P-King. I was thinking of you and wondering how you were doing.
 

MJWare

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Well, I think, maybe I'm officially done with querying. My first R came back a few days ago with a nicely worded e-mail saying lots of nice things about me and my writing--it was the same letter she sent last time--The agent uses a form letter that says how great you and your book are! :Headbang:

Then two more came in, with just three words each: "Not for us" and "We can pass"

We can pass? Really, you couldn't take the time to write more than three words? Even just copy and paste a form reply? -Yes, I am a little irritated.

I'm thinking that may this is it for me and querying. I'm not even a little bit jealous of Joy's two Fulls. Normally, I'd be happy, but a tad jealous too.
<End of Rant>

Best of Luck Joy! I hope no matter the agents reply, it's more than three words ;=)
 

Kitty Pryde

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Yesterday we packed up the UHaul, and today we are moving my parents a short 500 mile trip down to Oregon. Huzzah! I am very excited to be done moving them and back home in only 5 days! And there is a little bit of summer left in which to do fun stuff!

And I am feeling rather bouncy because I finished all my schoolwork for the first term of my teacher credential program and I got all As! Woo woo!
 

SheilaJG

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Glad you are feeling better, playground king. It takes time. I've been reading Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed, which is a compilation of advice columns she wrote. It really puts things in perspective, because you see how crappy things happen to everyone. Life is suffering, basically, but we muddle through.

:Hug2: mware. I know how you feel, I've gotten a few "not for me," replies, one on a full request. It sucks.

Yay on the As Kitty! I bet it will be so nice to be home after all this time.
 

MsJudy

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playground king, I'm glad you're feeling better. I think you're wise to be focusing on friends and fun now. So often the best things in our lives are the ones that happen when we open ourselves up to the unexpected.

Kitty, congrats on the As! And congrats on almost surviving the move. They say moving is one of the most traumatic things you can do. I hope you get a chance to recharge your batteries before school starts!

mware... May I offer you a small lecture? I think maybe you are giving up on the query process much too soon. 3 rejects? No personalized comments? pfft. So what?

Ask Joy how many rejections, personalized or otherwise, she's gotten over the years.

I guess we just have very different perspectives on the process, so we react differently. I tend to assume that the agents know more about the market than I do, so when I get rejected, I figure my premise or my writing just aren't quite "there" yet. I ask myself, "What more do I need to do? How can I get their attention?"

I spent time with Miss Snark's First Victim and other places that helped me learn how to write a really good first page. That's when I started getting more personal feedback. Then I used that personal feedback to push myself. People said my idea was too "small" to stand out in the market, so I came up with a bigger idea for my next book. That's when I started to get a whole bunch of full requests. I've used the feedback from those to push myself to get better at structuring a plot.

So... I guess I'm just wondering why you're so quick to give up. If you're not getting any nibbles on your query, it means there's something not working with your query and pages. Do you feel like those are both the best you can do? Or would it be worth working on them again with some fresh eyes?
 

JoyMC

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Ask Joy how many rejections, personalized or otherwise, she's gotten over the years.

:roll: :roll: :roll: I can't count that high.

But I'll give it a shot.

Before I started writing fiction, I wrote plays for fifteen years. I amassed over 400 rejections, some of them forms, most of them non-responses, all of them sucky. (I got some very minor productions and awards in there, but nothing major.)

Then I started writing fiction a few years ago. I queried my first manuscript to 60 agents. I got four requests. One of those fulls resulted in a form rejection, two never responded, and one sent a rejection that said they "could not consider any more work from me in the future."

I wrote my second manuscript. Queried around 60, got four requests (different four). One resulted in an R & R from a super major agent (which eventually turned into just an R). The other three resulted in complimentary rejections that asked to see my next project.

I wrote my third manuscript. Queried 35 agents. Got 11 requests. Four of those are still pending. There might have been a couple forms on the other fulls, but most resulted in specific and wildly complimentary rejections (frustrating in their own right, because if you love it so much, why don't you sign me already? :cry:)

Now I've been querying my fourth for a week. I've sent 10 queries, gotten two rejections (form) and three requests. Will this be The One? Dear God, I hope so. But you can bet I'm working on my next one.

(And wow, writing that out helps me see that I have been making progress. So: yay.)

Maybe I'll be like Beth Revis, who queried TWELVE MANUSCRIPTS before landing a major agent and major deal for ACROSS THE UNIVERSE. (But if I get that kind of agent/deal, twelve manuscripts will totally be worth it.)

I understand your frustration Mike, and maybe you are done with querying. There are definitely valid reasons for that. It sounds like you're doing pretty well with your self-publishing, for one. But I don't think you should let a few rude forms dictate whether or not you pursue traditional publication.

One thing to consider might be posting your query on the WriteOnCon forums next week - that way you might get requests from the Ninja Agents (who lurk in the forums and make requests) without the pain of expecting some kind of response. (Plus you might get query help, but I think you've posted that here, yeah?)

But with all that said, I'm sorry. I've certainly been there. I expect most of us have.

<End of Peptalk>
 

sissybaby

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There's a lot going on here, and I'm happy to see everyone doing something.

I'm glad you're feeling better, PKing. I felt so bad hearing all the pain in your voice.

Congrats on all the A's, Kitty. You definitely need to do lots of fun stuff with the little bit of summer you have remaining.

mware and Joy - I guess now I feel fortunate in all the rejections I've received. Aside from the ones that were never responded to, at least I've never received a "we can pass" or a "don't ever send us anything more." Where have all the manners gone?

On to why I stopped by:

My little one is here, and we turned on tv for a few minutes so Nana could finish making her tutu without her help. Yo Gabba Gabba was singing a song with the lyrics "DON'T - bite your friends."

Now, perhaps I'm wrong, but this just seems like a very bad idea to me.

I am a firm believer in telling your kids what you WANT them to do, not what you DON'T want them to do, because they often only remember the last part of what you say (I can't tell you how many times I've asked my kids to repeat back to me what I told them, and they could only repeat the last few words, so I know from experience that this is true.)

I hate to admit it, but when my oldest bit me on the leg, I popped her in the mouth.) I know, I'm a horrible mother. But it was so unexpected and she bit me so hard, that it was more of a reflex than anything else. I felt terrible about it, but she never bit anyone after that.

When my little one bit my son in the back, I sat her down and told her the only thing she could ever bite was food. She hasn't bitten anyone here since then. Of course, that doesn't mean that she won't, especially after watching Yo Gabba Gabba.

Anyway, end of rant.
 

sissybaby

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Granddaughter is spending the night. She likes to graze while I prepare dinner, and I was slicing cucumbers and handed her one. She ran outside for a few moments to "play" with the cats, and then was back with her hand out. She wanted another onion.

I told her they were not onions, they were cucumbers, and gave her another slice.

She ran back out, only to return a few moments later, and said, "Can I have another Q-bunker, Nana?"

Oh well, she is finally learning her colors, at least.
 

Sage

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Oh, man, I've had so many rejections on fulls. Love Sucks reigns highest of my novels in full rejections (half after a R&R). Fireflies is second, but that was because I queried it too fast. I could have possibly revised if I hadn't had so many fulls out at the same time and nobody left to query. I don't even get excited about fulls anymore. (I mean, I do, but I don't daydream about the offer the way I used to)
 

sissybaby

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oh, my. I just had my laugh for the day - maybe the week.

Several years ago we hosted an exchange student from Norway. Lovely young lady, we love her dearly.

This morning she sent me an email saying her Masters Thesis is due Tuesday, and she wondered if I could look it over for her. She's at her parents' summer house, alone, and has decided to panic over it at the last minute. Seems a friend was supposed to help her with it, but she finally gave up on him.

With a feeling of dread, I of course said, sure, send it on, figuring I'd be up all night with it because she wants to turn it in tomorrow rather than Tuesday.

She sent it - along with profuse thanks. Then I opened the document and discovered it was typed in Norwegian!!!! Hello? I freaked.

But then another email came in with loads of laughing (she knew exactly what she'd done) and an explanation that the English section began on page 3 and was only a three page excerpt.

Little snot. I hope she enjoys all the red ink as much as she enjoyed giving me a heart attack.
 

MJWare

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Oh, I missed your post PK. Glad to see you're up and about (so to speak). Relationships can be rough, but when it finally works out (as in marriage and kids) it's worth it, though still tons of work.

Before I reply to Judy, let me say none of my rejections were rude, just short and impersonal and both of those were only on query/sample pages (honestly, it's just nice those agents are sending replies at all).
mware... May I offer you a small lecture?
Yes, always feel free. I can't say how much I have learned from small (or big) lectures from AW members.

I think maybe you are giving up on the query process much too soon. 3 rejects? No personalized comments? pfft. So what?
To clarify, it was three that rubbed me wrong. I've had a dozen on about 2 dozen queries.
Still, I know that's nothing. IMHO, 100 is really the minimum.
But here's the reason I'm giving up so early: I'm do really well with the self-pubbing. The last two months I've sold over 800 book (90% ebooks) each month. I'm making 50% of my monthly goal to quit working and write full-time (that's a whole other can of worms). But the point is, I'm getting there and I feel like there's a window of opportunity to establish myself.

See, right now not many of the really popular books for MG boys are available on Kindle. This is because most have pictures and require formatting (like Wimpy Kids). So, boys looking for something to read with pictures, always find Super Zombie Juice in the top 5 and top 20 of the two lists they frequent to find books.

Eventually, the Big 6 will get off their rears and start converting these books, but if I can get a following before then, I hope my books will keep selling.

This worked for my friend David Dalglish. He writes hard-core fantasy (think Orcs and barbarians) and got a good following before the publishers got all their backlists out; now he has great sales even though his genre is now crowed with titles. I'm hoping to do the same.

I do realize, it may not work--once more boy books are out, my sales my fall--but it's worth a try.

I've gotten so much farther with the self-pub stuff than I ever did trying to get agents and magazine editor's attention.

I tend to assume that the agents know more about the market than I do, so when I get rejected, I figure my premise or my writing just aren't quite "there" yet. I ask myself, "What more do I need to do? How can I get their attention?"
...
If you're not getting any nibbles on your query, it means there's something not working with your query and pages. Do you feel like those are both the best you can do? Or would it be worth working on them again with some fresh eyes?

I admit, I've let the idea that "none of these agents get me" take root. And I know I have years and years of work to get my writing to the level I want. So, honestly you may be right. It might be my writing just isn't strong enough to make agents take notice.

But when I take replies from agents, like "I just didn't find myself laughing outloud..." I think, no duh... you aren't a 12 y.o. boy. Add that to my sales and candid comments from kids (they don't know I can read these), it seems my currently writing level (with help from a good editor) is good enough to get 4 and 5-star reviews and make sales.

I do still want an agent--all my "successful indie friend"' have them. They get them foreign deals, audio book deals, even movies deals. For kidlit it's even more important with things like library sales, book clubs, etc (that only an agent can get you).

I just feel like (if things continue) in a year or two my sales will speak for themselves.

It's a role of the dice, I know. But I feel like it's my best play right now.
 

Sage

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Consistently selling 800 books/month by yourself is pretty impressive. TBH, I would reconsider looking for agents if I were in that situation too. (I would never be in that situation because I have no sales skills)
 

JoyMC

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I'm making 50% of my monthly goal to quit working and write full-time

...

I admit, I've let the idea that "none of these agents get me" take root. And I know I have years and years of work to get my writing to the level I want. So, honestly you may be right. It might be my writing just isn't strong enough to make agents take notice.

That first bit is amazing Mike. Good for you.

On the latter, I recently loved this blog post on how the path to publication is not one-size-fits-all. It might resonate for you, too.

I do think, though, that the best kidlit agents DO know what makes a twelve-year-old boy laugh. They don't have to be one to get it. That's what makes them (and the good kidlit editors) good at their jobs. But still, you're obviously striking a chord with the kids to be getting those kind of sales on self-pub'd middle grade. Carry on!
 
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MJWare

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Thanks Sage and Joy. I'm sure if I provided more detail from the start, Judy wouldn't have been quite so surprised that I'm already moving on.

And while I think my books are pretty good, there's a huge element of luck involved. That's one of the reasons why I realize it's a gamble--Amazon could change their algorithms tomorrow and my sales could plummet. I've seen this happen to to others. The good thing is if you can get a following, that insulates you against those changes (plus, Amazon seems to be makes less and smaller changes when they tweak things).

That first bit is amazing Mike. Good for you.:

On the latter, I recently loved this blog post on how the path to publication is not one-size-fits-all. It might resonate for you, too.

I do think, though, that the best kidlit agents DO know what makes a twelve-year-old boy laugh. They don't have to be one to get it. That's what makes them (and the good kidlit editors) good at their jobs. But still, you're obviously striking a chord with the kids to be getting those kind of sales on self-pub'd middle grade. Carry on!

I know what you mean. But I see so many bad books released and so many good ones that we hear stories about almost not getting picked up, that I really don't know.

I will say this. I think female agents do a much better job of guessing what 12 yo boys like, than male agents can guess what 12yo girls like (perhaps we live in a society that doesn't--or didn't--teach men to empathize with others). Of course the male agents all give me big R's too!
 

MsJudy

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mware, I think the key is to find what works for you. You've posted a few times lately about wishing you had an agent because the marketing of your own books is so time-consuming. But if you're happy with your sales as they're going now, and still have the energy to keep working at it the way you have been, then why not?

It all depends on what you want. I don't have the self-confidence or the energy to self-publish a book that doesn't get a good response from agents. Since you do, there's no reason why you shouldn't--especially if you're able to pay your bills that way!

That's another difference between us. I actually love my day job, and don't plan on quitting to write full-time. So I have less of a sense of "I need to start selling my books NOW."

But I do still think there's something to consider. Figuring out why you aren't getting more interest from agents might help you hone your skills, which will only boost your sales, whichever way you go.

Have you tried any of the SCBWI conferences where you can get a critique from an agent or editor? It might be interesting to hear their perspective. For example, with one of my books I got consistent feedback that people loved my voice and style in the opening pages. It was the premise of the book that they felt wasn't "big enough" to stand out in the marketplace. That feedback 1) gave me confidence that I was on the right track with my skills and 2) helped me to focus a little more on what makes a good hook. The next book got great response--five full requests out of fewer than 30 queries.

I guess what I'm saying is it doesn't have to be either/or. You could use the query process to learn a lot, and still decide to self-publish.
 

MJWare

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I am sooo nervous about my newest book. I didn't put it through a dozen betas, workshop it, or take years writing it. But I did get lots of editing (I did content and copy editing before I even shopped it).
So, I don't think that I have lots of self-confidence, maybe just more daring than most.

I always get p!$$ed when I read about how Rick Riordan got what, 6 offers from his query for The Lightning Thief. So yes, agents aren't idiots--we'll most of them anyway =-)

For me it's more about time. I enjoy my work, but I work way too much (as in unhealthy too much). I just don't see the return on querying--for me at least (I did get consistent feedback on SZJMB, but it took 8 or 9 months). Conferences are another story; although I do know some of my weaknesses. Once I get to that next level they might be a good place to turn.

Honestly, I still haven't found that "Golden" kidlit editor who I feel can really take me to the next level. Conferences, workshops, new beta partners are great ideas for helping point out those rough patches in my craft. Right now, there's a lot of them, so it's more a matter of finding the time to work on them.

Judy, you just have tons more patience than I (not to mention better prose).
 

MsJudy

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If you're interested, I worked with a really good writing coach. He works online and over the phone, so it's less of a time commitment than a conference. He also specializes in boy-friendly writing, so he might have some good insights on what you're trying to accomplish. Let me know if you want his info.
 

DavidBrett

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33,000 words and... *drum-roll*

The first draft of 'The Enigma Files: Phantom Thief' is DONE!

I'm so happy I could cry. But I won't, cos I'm a MAN.

.... Ok, maybe a lil bit.

Dave