aruna said:
I have a question to all those who believe that only the Christian God is real.
How do people who worship "other" gods (or no god) learn morality and ethics? Surely they should be wicked, and if they are very religious, as for instance Hindus are, they must be very wicked indeed.
I know of no verse or passage in the Bible that says morality and ethics are only found in those who obey God. Even the New Testament says that good deeds without faith is dead, meaning humans are quite capable of doing good (showing morality and ethics) without being a Christian. Why you assume Christians think otherwise is beyond me.
Christian teaching is that good deeds can not get you into heaven. Because that would mean our salvation is dependent upon us when in fact salvation is totally dependent upon Christ's sacrifice on the cross, something Jesus did for us that we can not earn through good deeds nor ever deserve. Which is why Christianity is so hard to swallow for so many people in the world who reject Jesus. It takes total humility. It's admitting to God, "It is impossible for me to save myself, all my good deeds in life can not erase the sins I'm guilty of, I can only be saved by the sacrifice Jesus made to die in my place for my sins. The only verdict for my sins is death, there is no pardon for them. Jesus chose to die in my place so that I might live."
This is why Christianity is so hard for people to accept. You have to be able to admit you are guilty and do not have the strength or power to save yourself and can only be saved by letting an innocent man die in your place. That's what Jesus did - He took our place on death row. He was innocent, the only man ever to be born into this world and never be guilty of sin, so by rights He would not die. He gave up His life to die in our place. And it is a very hard teaching to swallow.
Mac H. said:
Interestingly, modern Christianity seems to have locked onto the 'Good' part of God, but seem offended that evil and suffering can come from the same God. Some have even expanded the role of the powerless creature in the Job story to be a powerful demon called 'Satan'. Part of the teaching of the book of Job is clear - the other power (called 'Satan' or whatever) has NO POWER. It is GOD who caused all the evil suffering to happen to Job.
God is not evil. But God did create evil because it has a purpose. And I'm a Christian.
Think of God as a fictional novelist. You do not write a novel with no conflict. You don't write a novel where everybody is perfect and every situation is perfect, and no one ever makes a mistake and no one ever gets their feelings hurt or thinks about revenge, or gets angry, etc... You don't do that, no one would read it, it would be boring and lifeless. A good author creates conflict and adds evil into the story. Writing evil in will challenge the heroes of the story, and we'll cheer when they overcome great obstacles in their journey because we want to see them reach their goal.
Sometimes I think angels watch us like we watch a movie or read a book. Wondering where the author is going to take the story next.
Colorado Guy said:
Of course sin exists. People do bad things. That being said, I urge you to take Medievalist’s advice posted above and look up the definition of that word on his/her link: the first definitions all relate to disobeying God. It is only further down on the page that one sees the definition of sin as a bad act. So the word sin itself, in contrast to a word like crime, has clear religious overtones.
Quakers believe that people do bad acts not because of their fallen nature, but because they are not listening (or have never really met) their own Inner Light, their God within. To swipe a phrase from Abraham Lincoln (who of course was not a Quaker), they are not listening to “the better angels of their nature.”
Do Quakers use a Bible? If Quakers profess to be Christianity (which I've always assumed they do) then their definition of the word sin would have to come from the Bible, or more specifically the Law given to the Israelites through Moses. That's all the Old Testament Law is - telling us what sin is.
Let's look at the 10 Commandments. Specifically at this one...
Do not lie - are you saying you've never in your life told a lie, even a little one? It doesnt' say "do not lie to God." It simply says, "do not lie." That means to everyone. That means if your mom asked you if you made your bed as a kid and you say you did but didn't, you lied. If you told her you washed your hands when you didn't, that's a lie. When you're asked if you know what happened but don't want to get in trouble and say, "I don't know," that's a lie.
I told lies all the time like that when I was a kid to keep from getting into trouble. It's something children do all the time. So are children sinners? Yes. More children show a mean-spirited nature against another child than adults do against anyone. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Just to tell one lie ever makes you a sinner. There's no such thing as a "little white lie" in God's eyes. A lie is a lie and a lie is sin and all sin leads to death and death can only be defeated by Jesus.
So I guess this is where I also don't quite understand your viewpoint. How can a Quaker say what sin is if they don't rely on the Bible? Just because you feel it? No offense, that sounds like New Age religion.
Colorado Guy said:
Quakers like me would answer that Jesus came to show us an example of how to live in the Light, that he was a teacher.
And I agree that He was that.
Colorado Guy said:
He was divine in the same sense that we all are divine.
I disagree with that. How do you define "divine?"
Colorado Guy said:
He came as a teacher, telling us to find the God that is already within us.
Now that sounds more like Mormonism. And aside from wanting to shout out the word that first came into my head when I read that statement, what is your grounds for believing this about Jesus? Bottom line, you wouldn't know anything about what Jesus taught if not for the Bible, so how can you accept what He taught but reject what the Bible says about why He came and who He was and who we are (namely in reference and comparison to God and Christ)?
Colorado Guy said:
I believe that he would tell us not to venerate a book.
Jesus frequently in His teachings referred to the written word.
Colorado Guy said:
You define Christian as someone who accepts the notion that the Bible is the arbiter of every question, the ultimate authority. Quakers like me do not accept that notion; we define a Christian as someone who lives his or her life according to the example of Christ’s life, using our own God within to tell us what that is.
Sounds like pluralism when you say "using our own God within us." But it brings me back to the question, if not for the Bible how would you have a basis for your faith? And if you use only the parts of the Bible which appeal to you to base your faith upon and not other parts denying its authority, does that not come across as a weak base and defense for you?
You seem to pick and choose things in the Bible that you agree with but dismiss the rest, because if you did accept it all you would be accepting it's authority and arbiter on every issue. This sends up big red flags to me on things the Bible warns against. The Bible warns very much against this kind of religion.
You say that Jesus is a good teacher but seem to deny Him as savior. Do you have another historical record of Jesus that counters the Bible to base this belief on?
C.S. Lewis touched on this topic. He said that Jesus was one of the three L's. Either He was a Lunatic, a Liar, or the Lord. If He was a Lunatic, you can't accept anything He said as truth or good. If He was a Liar, then all His teachings were lies. If He was the Lord, is the Lord, that means everything He said was true including our staus of being lost sinners and our only hope being through His death and resurrection. To deny that is to deny that He was Lord.
And this goes back to why Christianity is so hard for so many people to accept. Because you have to come face to face with just how fallen a sinner you are. And the Bible clearly states without that recogintion of your own condition, you can't accept Jesus for who He truly is. It's holding onto a pride to think "I'm not as bad as Jesus said I was. I can get to Heaven on my own."
Colorado Guy said:
Quakerism might be seen as a recipe for chaos.
Yeah, just a little.
Colorado Guy said:
When a Quaker feels deeply that something from within is an inspired connection with the God within, the Inner Light, this is called a leading. Before a Quaker accepts the leading, especially if it relates to an important matter, he or she tests the validity of that leading by discussing it with other members of the meeting in an encounter known as a clearness committee.
In fact, if a person wants to join a meeting, he or she must explain their leading to do so to a clearness committee of the meeting convened expressly for that purpose.
That actually sounds a bit scary to me because that sounds an awful lot like a cult I've heard about. Which I'm not saying that Quakers are a cult, I'm just saying that sounds an awful lot like a cult I've heard about.
Sassenach said:
Maybe if you live in Afghanistan. I don't think most American Christians suffer persecution.
Yeah, that's a serious understatement. I think there are different levels of persecution. But for a Christian living in Afghanistan, that kind of persecution could lead to their death. Christians in America aren't concerned about being killed for their faith. At least most aren't.
Medievalist said:
You've just hit upon the reasons the Catholic church developed the concepts of limbo and purgatory, both now discredited.
Well I didn't know "limbo" was a catholic term, but I was under the impression that catholics still believed in purgatory.
Peggy said:
That explains something that has puzzled me : why some evangelical preachers who go on and on about American Christians being persecuted.
There's a difference between perseuction and pushing people around in an unloving way and thinking their negative reaction is persecution. I've never felt persecuted really, except for maybe on message boards such as this one.
Peggy said:
But if part of their beliefs require that anyone of the Christian faith WILL be persecuted, it's no wonder that they go desperately looking for it. It really really bothers me that they say such things, trivializing the real persecution Christians suffer in countries like Afghanistan and China.
Okay, I quoted Jesus saying, "you will have trouble." Not, "you will be persecuted."
All Christians who are true to their faith will have trouble because of it. I remember in High School wearing a Christian t-shirt one day and a couple guys walking behind me were making fun of what my shirt said. If they started pushing me around and getting violent about it, then I'd call it persecution. As it was, they were just giving me trouble about it.
I'm not sure this is a place to go into a Bible study on the topic. It's a really cool Bible study that looks at the Beattitudes as a progression of faith which states that persecution only comes to the Christian who has reached a high level of maturity in Christ. These are not Christians who act like jerks to people and therefore only get what they deserve by negative reactions. These are people whose behavior and attitude reflect Christ and are suffering true persecution for the sake of Christ.
Again, there's a difference between being persecuted for Christ and getting feedback you deserve because you were a jerk.
aruna said:
I think another word for what you are saying, Colorado Guy, is simply conscience. It's obvious that some people do need a written rulebook so as to know what to do. Others have a strong conscience, a strong internal, guiding voice, and know what's right and wrong almost instinctively. They simply cannot act in a way contrary to their conscience, and don't need the threat of damnation and hell to do good. I think that is an instance of "God within us" as taught by the Quakers and other introspective religions.
I would not be able to recognize the voice of Christ within me if not for my knowledge of Him obtained through scripture. Do I hear His voice in me? Yes, daily. It's His voice in me that says, "Don't say what you're thinking to that person, you're reacting in anger, do not let that sin escape your lips." Or, "Say this to that person, it'll make their day." Or my favorite, "I love you." It is a voice I can clearly discern from my own thoughts, because it's calm, it's quiet, and it's truth. And I know it's truth because I know the Bible.