The No News is No News Purgatory Thread, Vol. 7

[firedrake]

I know the answer to this one!!!!

Stop thinking of it as a waste.

Which brings me to my point du jour.

This is a process. Writing. Publishing. Self-publishing. Whatever. A process.

And it's not a quick process. You don't go in expecting overnight fame. Or at least you shouldn't. Every rejection is a building block. Every trunked novel, a step toward something better.

We learn from books that garner attention (offers, sales, etc.) and we learn from the books that don't. Notice I didn't use the words "success" and "failure." You know why? Because they're not relevant in this business!

I asked the question a week or so ago: why do you write? There were as many different answers as there are personalities in Purgatory. None of them were right and none of them were wrong. We all come to the table for our own reasons.

But know this! If the perceived success or failure of a single project is a means to measure your own self worth, this is, perhaps, not the best business to be in. Your success or failure could be attributed to any number of things:

- popularity of genre
- similarity of concept
- the size and diversity (or lack there of) of an agent or editor's list
- what said agent or editor ate for breakfast
- how your main character reminds said agent or editor of the bully who made their life miserable in the 4th grade
- solar flares
- this season's abundance of time travelling ninja novels
- shiny things
- whether or not vampires are in or out...again

Notice how none of those things are your actual merit as a writer?

CAVEAT: sometimes it is the writing. I'm not going to sugar coat it. Sometimes, the writing isn't strong enough. Or the voice isn't right. Or the plot doesn't hold up. I mean, it's true. It happens.

How can you tell if your writing actually sucks lime green donkey's balls or whether it's just not the right manuscript at the right time?

You try again. And again. And again if need be. You try and improve and adapt until you can't or won't do it anymore.

All of this and what everyone else said.

We give a lot of ourselves to our books but we're not the ones being judged when we sub them or query them.

At the risk of sounding like a patronising old cow.

You are young, you just finished your Masters for heaven's sake. You have plenty of books in you. Hell, SS was my 4th or 5th book (can't remember, being old you see).

Step away from the sodding book, take a break, read some good stuff, get out into the glorious countryside (if it ever fucking stops raining), live a little. Your book may be part of you but it doesn't define you.

You are not worthless, so there.

Yours sincerely

Grumpy Old Fart with earache

 

[Cricket18]

Repped a bit, but it seems like Purgatory needs and .

Just want to say, one of my evening rituals is checking in to see if Fire has posted. When she does, I know it's time to hit the hay.

 

[firedrake]

Repped a bit, but it seems like Purgatory needs and .

Just want to say, one of my evening rituals is checking in to see if Fire has posted. When she does, I know it's time to hit the hay.

*sniffs*

Are you saying that my posts put you to sleep?

 

[dystophil]

Morning Purgs!

*sniffs*

Are you saying that my posts put you to sleep?

I think what Cricket is saying is that your posts are like getting tucked under a warm fluffy duvet. Or like the voice that goes "It's Bloody Dark o'clock! Go the fuck to sleep!"

Also, woah, did I somehow manage to spread my nasty cold through all of purgatory? Damn, that cold is good.

*puts on a pot of tea or three* (my tea this morning is an orange ginger rooibos)

And apparently I need to track back to London, hop on the train to Dorset, buy Para some Bailey's and demonstrate just how very much she's not worthless. At all. Not ever.

 

[firedrake]

Morning Purgs!



I think what Cricket is saying is that your posts are like getting tucked under a warm fluffy duvet. Or like the voice that goes "It's Bloody Dark o'clock! Go the fuck to sleep!"

Also, woah, did I somehow manage to spread my nasty cold through all of purgatory? Damn, that cold is good.

*puts on a pot of tea or three* (my tea this morning is an orange ginger rooibos)

And apparently I need to track back to London, hop on the train to Dorset, buy Para some Bailey's and demonstrate just how very much she's not worthless. At all. Not ever.

It is a very vigorous cold.

*grabs tea*

Yes, fly back to London and sort Para out!!

And, ladies and gentlemen...behold.

 

[dystophil]

Fire, I've said it before, but Marcus is hot.

Love Endersley in the centre of the cover -- hope they'll stick to that throughout the series and use vaguely the same format, that would be awesome.

I guess the one and only good thing about me not being in England anymore is that you all won't actually have to listen to me croak and cough. Though tea has serious brain-flushing powers and at least the writing seems to go better again. My mission for tomorrow is to procure a fountain pen, because I fell in love with my mother's as I was scribbling things into my shiny new notebook on which I spend my last couple of pounds at the airport.

Oh and something interesting (at least to me) I realized about writing -- I've had a seriously hard time "getting in the zone" and by extension my protagonist's (rather drawly, U.S. slang voice) while in Germany and even in the UK and Ireland, especially in Germany when my mother has German radio or TV running in the background. It's like language schizophrenia in my head with mildly entertaining results.

 

[kellion92]

Oh, pretty, Fire!

(((Para)))

I wish there was a better way to test concepts before writing a novel. I get that unpublished writers need to write the novel and can't sell on proposal, but sometimes a concept doesn't interest agents and they stop reading at sample page 10. And then, while everything the writer labored over from page 11 to page 300 might be a learning experience, it would be nice to learn from a novel that had a chance.

 

[rosiecotton]

Morning

Ooh, Fire! That's delicious!

((((Para))))

 

[Calla Lily]

Ooh, fire! Please send the tousled guy over to my house. (Yes, I know, I'm not his cuppa. He can give me a backrub. )

Dys, have you come to the Fountain Pen Dark Side? Muahahaha! I own 6, I think. Let me know if you want my go-to online retailers.

'ROID RAGE! (Well, not really. Mostly just getting flushed. But my joints are a weensy bit less swollen! Yay! I can do this for 7 days.) So... should I use this newfound power on Para, just to show her the error of her ways?

 

[Amarie]

Beautiful cover, Fire!!

I wish there was a better way to test concepts before writing a novel. I get that unpublished writers need to write the novel and can't sell on proposal, but sometimes a concept doesn't interest agents and they stop reading at sample page 10. And then, while everything the writer labored over from page 11 to page 300 might be a learning experience, it would be nice to learn from a novel that had a chance.

I've thought about this for a long time, and it will make people groan with frustration, but the only surefire way to get an agent to request is to have something in the query they haven't heard before.

Years ago when I went to an intensive writers' workshop. all twelve participants had to pitch to an agent in front of the rest of the group. You could almost visibly see her eyes glaze over with most of the pitches. The only one she was really interested in was about missing children and a goddess cult in Harvard Square. She was mildy interested in mine because of the Paris setting for part of the story. She said she'd read it if I rewrote it and set it entirely in Paris. (By the time I did, she complimented the writing but said she had stopped representing fiction.)

Of some of the recent middle grade I've read that I bet got read by agents fairly quickly is one about trolls on the Mississippi who start to turn the people of the town to stone, and one about a boy in an alternate history 19th century New York who is made a witchhunter because he can detect witchcraft, and someone with magical powers is trying to kill Thomas Edison.

When I decided to write middle grade, I tried very hard to come up with something really different and that's why I settled on a president's son trapped at Camp David after a disaster.

Of course, lots and lots of books without a quirky or different element still get published, but it's just an easier road if you can find that one concept with a unique twist.

This leaves out the whole problem of once a book is bought having marketing say it's just too out there for them to figure out a way to market it. *cough* kids on a movie set in Slovakia with a bunch of trained wolves

eta: though agents get bored long before the reading public. Isn't this one of the reasons why Amanda Hock1ng was successful? Her first popular books were about vampires, right?

 

[K. Taylor]

Your covers are definitely going to do their job, Fire.


Spent the past hour browsing through temporary wallpaper offerings. Too. Many. Choices. And not an easy search utility. I'd like to be able to search just the stick-on wallpaper line, not the entire wallpaper site, thank you.

The corner for my desk is terribly dark due to the dark wood paneling on the entire room (one of the previous owners basically put wood flooring on the walls), and since I can't paint, I'm looking for a simple light-color wallpaper without a busy, big pattern. Easier said than done so far, oy.

Not that this room is any closer to me actually getting to the wall. I was even carrying crap to the recycling can last night and D. still didn't take the hint. He just watched.

 

[ink wench]

Fire, another gorgeous cover! Wow!

Kellion, it annoys me too.

Amarie, I get what you're saying, but (in YA at least) when I read PM, so many of the deal descriptions sound mind-numbingly alike. I really don't see originality. I mostly see the same old thing with a couple changes thrown in. I've been having a harder and harder time finding YA books I want to read, which makes me sad.

 

[Kris]

K. Taylor- this company in Brooklyn does custom wallpaper. Or they may have what you need. I don't know how they compare price-wise but I love some of their stuff.

 

[Calla Lily]

KT, this might be guy selective vision. Mr. Lily almost never sees things to be carried out, cleaned, etc, BUT if I come right out and ask him, "Honey, could you help me with this?" he'll get up and help.

 

[firedrake]

Tousled guy is mine. All Mine.

Thanks for the cover love. I'm just blown away by Emmy's talent. What I really love is that she incorporated a couple of lines from the book on the cover. Really clever.

Lily, glad the drugs are having an effect.

Amarie - some very good points there.

KT - Mr FD is the same but he's excused because he works 10 hour days!

 

[kellion92]

It's hard to know what will sell. I came across a new MG that seems very original but that I can't imagine succeeding with children (and I wouldn't read it either -- it looks too horrible in the sense of filled with horror). The systems we have are imperfect and often are based on what the editors/agents want to read. Amarie, remember that kidlit editor a couple months ago who said she picked books based on what she liked, then thought about readers later? And that she picked books that she'd want to read many times? Well, I'm in favor of art, but that's a bad way to make business decisions.

I understand why an editor would make those choices. Of course they want to work on books they love! But the job is to choose books that kids will read, not what is novel or interesting to adults.

 

[Amarie]

Amarie, I get what you're saying, but (in YA at least) when I read PM, so many of the deal descriptions sound mind-numbingly alike. I really don't see originality. I mostly see the same old thing with a couple changes thrown in. I've been having a harder and harder time finding YA books I want to read, which makes me sad.

I know, but I often wonder what was in the query as opposed to the little deal blurb. The latest YA my son is crazy about is this wild steampunk that involves twins, one of whom is gay, who switch places to go the schools that the other one was supposed to be attending, and there are some killer automatons thrown in.

The jacket cover, though, makes it sound relatively boring, focusing on the generic in the story.

Kiddo picked it up only because he liked the cover.

 

[Amarie]

It's hard to know what will sell. I came across a new MG that seems very original but that I can't imagine succeeding with children (and I wouldn't read it either -- it looks too horrible in the sense of filled with horror). The systems we have are imperfect and often are based on what the editors/agents want to read. Amarie, remember that kidlit editor a couple months ago who said she picked books based on what she liked, then thought about readers later? And that she picked books that she'd want to read many times? Well, I'm in favor of art, but that's a bad way to make business decisions.

I understand why an editor would make those choices. Of course they want to work on books they love! But the job is to choose books that kids will read, not what is novel or interesting to adults.

I agree the system is imperfect. I was just trying to make the point that if you want an easier path going the agent route, that's the way to do it.

and on the note of what kids want that isn't being published-Lots of boys of YA-age would like to read more YA epic fantasy, and it is really hard to find recently published ones.

 

[raburrell]

Morning all
Fire, w00t!!! Agree with everyone else, they're really doing right by you in the cover department.

Lily, I'm glad you're feeling better.

Clovia, *vamp dust*

OL, hope you're feeling better today.

Kris - yikes, yikes, and triple yikes. You're doing everything right. I hope he goes away soon. Hugs.

Para, everyone else said it. Hope today, things don't feel quite as crushing.


Thanks for the comments and reps, peeps - I'm okay with it, really. She believes in the book (probably more than I do, tbh) so I know she wouldn't do anything to jeopardize chances for a sale. And we're having a call about the new one I'm struggling with on Friday, and I'm hoping I'll feel more confident about what I'm doing after that. So tis all good.

I've maybe said this before, but getting this book ready for sub has really driven home for me why either an agent or an editor has to completely fall in love with a book (not to mention see a sales potential) to take on a new author. She's read this silly thing, in whole or in part, 5 times now, and whenever she talks to me about the characters, she talks about them the same way I do, like they're real people to her. But she's also pushed me to make some hard choices in the early revisions that made the book more commercial. It's really a tough line to walk. As frustrating as the no's are, that's really what you need as an advocate, is someone who 'gets' your writing to that degree. And even for all that, I have one book she couldn't sell, another she didn't think was fixable, and I have no idea how this one's going to do. So... yeah.

Bottom line, it's a rough industry. Sometimes it feels like you've gotta feed your soul into it in order to succeed, but somewhere between typing THE END and sending the book out into the great big world, you have to find a way to yank your soul back to where it belongs. It'll be more help writing the next book than it will be gathering dust in someone's overstuffed inbox.

 

[K. Taylor]

KT, this might be guy selective vision. Mr. Lily almost never sees things to be carried out, cleaned, etc, BUT if I come right out and ask him, "Honey, could you help me with this?" he'll get up and help.

With the office, he already said he would help weeks go. This is the moving-crap-out-of-the-way-so-my-new-desk-can-go-in project. It was his idea to get it done weeks ago, then he had excuse after excuse and just plain didn't do it. Hasn't done it.

I did a few hours of work preparing for his part and now I can't move forward until his part is done due to 1) heavy shit and 2) things that aren't mine that I have no idea where to move them to.

It's been brought up, he's been reminded, there's been time. I've even taken to shutting the TV off and giving him the "well?" look and he leaves the room to be on his computer again.

It's to the point that I'd have to nag and I don't want to. I hate having to. Makes me feel like someone's mother.

 

[sammyig]

Morning all.

((Para))

((Lily))

((Cheeky))

((Kris))

Woke up to a tiny awesome. Someone bought 3 of my pointe shoe fitting courses this morning. I can finally rebuild my savings- yay!

 

[Tasmin21]

Mornin' folk!

Caleb brought bagels. *omnomnom*

 

[firedrake]

I've maybe said this before, but getting this book ready for sub has really driven home for me why either and agent or an editor has to completely fall in love with a book (not to mention see a sales potential) to take on a new author. She's read this silly thing, in whole or in part, 5 times now, and whenever she talks to me about the characters, she talks about them the same way I do, like they're real people to her. But she's also pushed me to make some hard choices in the early revisions that made the book more commercial. It's really a tough line to walk. As frustrating as the no's are, that's really what you need as an advocate, is someone who 'gets' your writing to that degree. And even for all that, I have one book she couldn't sell, another she didn't think was fixable, and I have no idea how this one's going to do. So... yeah.

Bottom line, it's a rough industry. Sometimes it feels like you've gotta feed your soul into it in order to succeed, but somewhere between typing THE END and sending the book out into the great big world, you find a way to yank your soul back to where it belongs. It'll be more helping writing the next book than it will be gathering dust in someone's overstuffed inbox.

Well said.

My view as someone who appraises new submissions as well as inheriting unedited subs from departed editors:

1. When I read a new submission I look it from several angles:

Whether the characters will appeal to me and readers, for instance, I'm not inclined to take on a book about a spoilt princess of an MC.;

How much editing will it need? Frankly, I'm appalled by the standard of some of the submissions I've seen. As if someone woke up and decided to scribble something down while they ate their cornflakes. I really would prefer that authors don't consider subbing to an e-pub means they can lower their standards;

Does it fit with the publisher's existing output? We do erotic romance, not erotica?

2. Editing: I am not happy when I have to rewrite a book for an author. I don't care how many books you've had published with x number of publishers. Don't give me sloppy work. There's no excuse.

3. If I read a book I love, it makes my job an absolute joy. Like I can't believe I'm being paid to edit it.

That is my very subjective view. I seem to have different tastes from my predecessors. There are books they've signed up that I'm editing that I would not have chosen, even though I read each submission with a view to seeing how it fits.

/lecture

 

[Amarie]

That is my very subjective view. I seem to have different tastes from my predecessors. There are books they've signed up that I'm editing that I would not have chosen, even though I read each submission with a view to seeing how it fits.

/lecture

very curious about this. is it something about the characters or the storyline that you wouldn't have chosen?

 

[Calla Lily]

{{{KT}}}


I'm eating a macaroon. Nom.