Unintended Consequences: Seattle Edition

Hapax Legomenon

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I was actually thinking more along the lines of giving motive to work and removing those without from the job market, but yours is good too.
 

robjvargas

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My point is, Don, you seemed to be implying that you "learned" these things by working a job that paid you barely anything. I don't believe that you did. Raising minimum wage is not going to prevent employees from learning these things.

It does when said employees cease to be employees.

Which, by the way, isn't settled. I have posited a potential issue, but I'm not sure that it's actually taken place on the whole. I don't know if a leap from $8/hr (or wherever Seattle's minimum wage was) to $15/hr would actually cause an overall loss of jobs. And if Seattle is otherwise growing, it might be near impossible to figure it out.

It's also possible that the rise doesn't qualify as a leap in the first place.
 

kuwisdelu

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I don't know what they're teaching in school these days, but work ethic apparently isn't part of the mix.

If you want me to do more than what you say is expected of me, then your expectations are not being clearly communicated.

Not my fault if employers can't properly communicate their expectations.

"Work ethic" is no different from the "social contract" or "original sin".

Edit: But then, I'm not the kind of person who would be seeking promotions anyway. The idea of management is anathema to me.
 
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CassandraW

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Well, original sin sounds like more fun.
 

kuwisdelu

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Better yet, lets pool all the work and wealth and then divvy it up, from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs...

;)

Not a bad idea, but I'd prefer to get rid of wealth entirely rather than divide it up.
 

robeiae

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As long as you're good with dirt farming, shepherding, and making widgets in an assembly line for the rest of your life, it's all good. Ain't no means of supporting full-time students--or writers--in a wealthless society.

Oh sure, you could pursue statistics or writing during your Rest Periods, but that's about it.
 

kuwisdelu

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As long as you're good with dirt farming, shepherding, and making widgets in an assembly line for the rest of your life, it's all good. Ain't no means of supporting full-time students--or writers--in a wealthless society.

There's always room for storytellers. ;) And farming and sheep herding ain't so bad.

Simple is fine by me if the community is organized in a way that supports it.

Though I really don't think it would lead to that anyway. You seem to be assuming a lot.

Edit: Meh, this really isn't the thread for this anyway...
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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Not a bad idea, but I'd prefer to get rid of wealth entirely rather than divide it up.


I would prefer a separation of wealth, work, and virtue. Money seems to be inherently connected to morality here. We constantly monitor people who need welfare for fraud and other things we deem immoral like spending money on things we don't like. We equate holding down a job as a sign of good character, and worse, unemployment as a sign of bad character. All the while the vast majority of these people are working for profit-making-entities, which function out of greed.

It's an uneven playing field. In a society that can support it, people should work out of personal greed as well, not to merely survive. That's what I meant, anyway.
 
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Synonym

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My point is, Don, you seemed to be implying that you "learned" these things by working a job that paid you barely anything. I don't believe that you did. Raising minimum wage is not going to prevent employees from learning these things.

No, it won't keep them from learning. Part of the problem is that they should already know that there are certain expectations that an employer has. Common expectations for any exchange of money for labor. Certainly, the employer could, (and probably should), hand them a job description during the interview. Does it need to include brush your teeth, comb your hair, wear clean underwear? People ought to know that much, as well as the 'show up on time' part. That's why there are entry level jobs.

They don't pay as well as positions requiring experience/education because someone has to take the time to train them, and wait for them to accumulate the knowledge. Even simple things like: where's the clean silverware, where do they keep the dry goods, where is the mop, where is the sugar-free dressing that the diabetic patron asks for, (is there sugar-free dressing), what do you do when the credit card is declined, did I write that order correctly or did the cook screw it up? Every time a new hire has to stop and think, or ask, they're less efficient and making others slower too. By the time they've managed to assimilate all this new knowledge, they're trained. And probably earning more tips, along with better wages. They are worth more.

Now, a crappy attitude is a crappy attitude. You can't train that out of someone that hates the fact that they're working some mundane minimum wage job. Especially when they'd much rather be home on the couch, wearing out another game controller. We've probably all had to work with one of these people. If it was the boss's nephew, you knew you'd have to put up with it. If it was a new-hire, you couldn't wait for them to get fired.
 

kuwisdelu

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No, it won't keep them from learning. Part of the problem is that they should already know that there are certain expectations that an employer has. Common expectations for any exchange of money for labor. Certainly, the employer could, (and probably should), hand them a job description during the interview. Does it need to include brush your teeth, comb your hair, wear clean underwear? People ought to know that much, as well as the 'show up on time' part. That's why there are entry level jobs.

Do many jobs really have clean underwear inspections? What if I'm going commando?
 

kuwisdelu

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They don't pay as well as positions requiring experience/education because someone has to take the time to train them, and wait for them to accumulate the knowledge. Even simple things like: where's the clean silverware, where do they keep the dry goods, where is the mop, where is the sugar-free dressing that the diabetic patron asks for, (is there sugar-free dressing), what do you do when the credit card is declined, did I write that order correctly or did the cook screw it up? Every time a new hire has to stop and think, or ask, they're less efficient and making others slower too. By the time they've managed to assimilate all this new knowledge, they're trained. And probably earning more tips, along with better wages. They are worth more.

IMO, employees shouldn't be paid much less than just because they're still in training.

Their wage is an investment by the employer in their future potential.

If they're not willing to make that investment, don't hire that person in the first place.
 

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IMO, employees shouldn't be paid much less than just because they're still in training.

Their wage is an investment by the employer in their future potential.

If they're not willing to make that investment, don't hire that person in the first place.

All right. Let's look at this from a different angle.

Give me a minute to come up with something appropriate...
 

Synonym

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Ok kuwi, we'll try this.

You need a sign for your new business. You have $200 budgeted.

There is a retired professional sign painter who would do the job for that amount. You've seen his work, and know he has a good reputation. After discussing what you want it to say, he tells you he would have it ready in five days. It will be fairly plain, no frills.

You also have a friend with an art degree, that could really use the money. He's never done this kind of thing before. Still, you love the anime that this person does. His artistic talents are evident. Over a couple of beers, the friend agrees to give it a try. By the fourth, he's convinced he could make the most attractive sign in the whole town, drawing everyone in to your establishment.

You decide to invest in potential, over experience.

Five days pass. No sign. The friend has several different attempts scattered about, but, nothing is finished.

"I didn't know what to use as the base. I didn't know what kind of paint to use. Did you know that they have paint specifically made for sign painting, and brushes too? It's taking me a while to learn how to use them."

Potential is running head-long into your planned opening date. But, you were willing to invest.

The day before your opening, the friend calls to tell you the sign is done and installed. You squeeze a few minutes out of your pre-opening day preparations to admire his work.

It's colorful, bold, imaginative. He's incorporated the name of your business into the clothing of several anime characters. You're blown away. He takes his money, you go back inside to finish getting ready for the big day.

The next day, the trouble starts. "What's the name of this place, anyway?" After explaining it a couple of times, you finally take the next person out to show them how cleverly it's been incorporated into the whole beautiful scene. They squint up, shrug, and roll their eyes. You figure they've just not learned to appreciate good art.

A week later, you're driving down the street, idly ticking off the names of your neighbor's shops. That's when you realize that your sign is indeed colorful, it's imaginative, and it's also impossible to read at 20 MPH. It's impossible to read at a fast walk. Ten feet, standing still, and studying it, is really best.

The experienced sign painter offered plain. You have the sneaking suspicion that it would have been delivered on time and also saved a lot of headaches. The 'potential' of your friend caused more stress, and in the end you received something that does not work. He didn't understand how to deliver what you really needed, rather than what you thought you wanted. But, you've invested in potential.

Now that he's got the paint and brushes, perhaps he will apprentice with the retired painter to learn how to make effective signage?
 

CassandraW

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Indeed, for most jobs, you wouldn't even have artwork to peruse. Absent some kind of work experience, you'd have a transcript with grades.

Can I tell you how many people I've known who had excellent grades, but who either had an utter lack of common sense, or considered themselves above showing up on time, being polite, respectful, etc.? Or in some other way were lousier candidates than perhaps some others with seemingly less impressive credentials?

Each of my jobs acted as a stepping stone to the next. And when I applied to law school, I cited the fact that I'd worked all of these crap jobs and earned my way (which made my good grades seem more impressive).

The last of my line of not-particularly-well-paying pre-law-school jobs was as a paralegal/gofer in a small law firm. (Actually, I started as the receptionist/gofer. But the paralegal left, and they gave me a shot.) I impressed the head of the firm (a Harvard Law grad) with my good attitude and efficiency -- he wrote me a glowing recommendation for law school.

Not only would I assert that I did in fact gain something even from performing that very first and indubitably crappy job (I discuss it somewhere above), but without my gradual build up of experience and goodwill, I might well not have gotten into my fancy-pancy law school. Only one-quarter of candidates with perfect grades and LSATs got in that year, so I've got to think they looked at something other than my grades.

I wonder, had those jobs not been available, what would have become of me. Perhaps I would have landed one of the better paying jobs right out of the box, and things would have gone on from there. But probably it would have gone to someone more experienced -- and there'd likely be fewer such jobs on the ground, and more people competing for them. They took a risk on me because I was cheap. Later employers had more to go on -- my previous experience, recommendations.

And if I hadn't managed to get a job, I'd have had a lot more debt.

If I'd applied to law school with only my grades and LSATs to recommend me, I would have certainly gotten into a law school, probably a pretty good one. But I'm betting it wouldn't have been the one I got into.

Anecdotal, yes. But that's one take on the potential value on taking a crap low-paying job when you're young, a blank slate to employers, and frankly likely have little to offer until you've learned a thing or two.

If I could have afforded an unpaid internship at some interesting place, I would have happily taken it. As it was, I really could not. I was happy to get a foot on the ladder. YMMV.

ETA:

I think this is another thread where I'm going to bow out, since I don't see much prospect of the conversation moving anywhere but in circles.
 
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ShaunHorton

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I'm not even sure where the thread is or is going anymore....

I was brought up old-fashioned, with manners. Even before my first job it was: be on time, be respectful, work hard, go above and beyond, etc. etc.

None of that has helped me land jobs in the slightest.

ONE job that helped me after I already got it, was Lot Maintenance at an RV dealership. Through hard work and keeping busy, I manage to take a part-time, seasonal position, and make it a full-time, permanent one. At no point, however, was I given any opportunity to move up or over into other positions. In the end, at a month shy of being there for three years, I was laid off. "Lack of work", they said, even though a manager's nephew was hired into the position not even a week later, at more money per hour than I ever made.

I'm currently going on my third year unemployed, with a variety of experience in Landscaping, Maintenance, Driving, and Customer Service. I have an Associate's Degree with a focus on English and physical science, I have CPR and First Aid certifications, and I spent the last two years volunteering for a local animal rescue.

Manners, hard work, and experience hasn't gotten me shit.
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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A $200 sign for your business? If you've only got $200 for it, no wonder you could only get your drinking buddy to make it for you...

I would also argue that freelance contracted work and wage work are inherently different. Training for a position for a wage does not so often involve such basic skills for a trade but does require a lot of idiosyncratic information for that particular position that will not be useful elsewhere. Therefore the training is of more value to the company than to the individual, and should pay for it.
 

CassandraW

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Shorter thread: Everybody get off Cass's lawn :D

:roll:

Cass is a little cranky today. But she's letting you keep the lawn, and she's going inside to bed with her pillow over her head.

Party on, dudes.