What To Do About Students Pirating Textbooks

[benbradley]

The difference is that you are stealing a physical product which cost money to produce. Downloading digital media creates a new copy, the same as photocopying pages out of a friend's book. Not exactly the same thing.

Yes, it's not EXACTLY the same thing - as another poster said, it may not be the exact same thing legally, but if you think that intellectual property rights (copyrights, trademarks, patents) are a legitimate thing, then morally it IS the same thing, and it's wrong.

Side note: piracy is not technically stealing; people like to say this for dramatic effect, but it doesn't really make sense.

Stealing is physically taking something from someone.

In piracy nothing is taken.

Technically that's what it looks like - bits are copied and the original bits are still there.

What is taken from the copyright owner is the opportunity to sell a copy to someone who would have bought it, but who got a copy for free or at lower cost from someone else who made and gave/sold an illegal copy. It's stealing an opportunity to make a sale from the copyright owner.

I agree with this about DRM. But it does not logically follow that students should be allowed to pirate the book without consequence.

I agree, but ...

If an ebook has DRM, the check for DRM is pretty easy. If it's not in place, consequence. I'll leave it up to the professor to decide the appropriate consequence.

So a professor or college administrator is going to check every student's computer for pirated ebook textbooks? This seems like a violation of rights, unless every student has signed an agreement that allows the administration to scan their computer any time they're enrolled as a student. I wouldn't put it past some schools to have such an agreement for students to sign.

KTC has the right of it. It's theft. Petty theft, but still theft. If you're truly honest you don't do it. Or if you do do it you admit as much with your list of excuses to bolster you, some of which are quite convincing. (See above; and below for examples.)

I don't offhand know what the maximum dollar value of "petty theft" is, but some software packages (I'm thinking Autocad) are sold for over a thousand dollars.

 

[Deleted member 42]

I'm not sure whether this is the right place to post this, but I was wondering what any of you would do in this situation.

I am fairly positive that your school has a policy regarding this.

You follow that policy—because you, the school and the student could all be sued.

Also, it's still wrong to defraud the author and the publisher. It's not the way to behave.

 

[kuwisdelu]

Yes, it's not EXACTLY the same thing - as another poster said, it may not be the exact same thing legally, but if you think that intellectual property rights (copyrights, trademarks, patents) are a legitimate thing, then morally it IS the same thing, and it's wrong.

I don't understand the insistence that they are morally equivalent. Not even all kinds of physical theft are morally equivalent.

Technically that's what it looks like - bits are copied and the original bits are still there.

What is taken from the copyright owner is the opportunity to sell a copy to someone who would have bought it, but who got a copy for free or at lower cost from someone else who made and gave/sold an illegal copy. It's stealing an opportunity to make a sale from the copyright owner.

As has been pointed out, that's not always true. A significant proportion of the time, that person wouldn't have bought it anyway.

 

[benbradley]

...
Which still has me scratching my head, but I guess it comes from the same place as having the right to make as many copies as you want of a CD you own, so long as you don't ask someone else to do it for you.

The intent is that all copies/backups you make of a CD/paper you bought always remain in your control and possession.

 

[Deleted member 42]

How about the flip side?

If I'm a student and my professor hands out photocopies from a textbook or other copyrighted work, should I report them? To the administration? To the publisher? To the police?

Educational use is a safe harbor. They'd have to defend that use in court, but if the work is a portion, if it is actually used for instruction, then it's not likely they'll be taken to court.

If they illegally copy and distribute the material and charge students for the materials specifically, then they have a problem.

But it's dead easy to write for permission, and an awful lot of faculty do this on their own initiative especially if materials are available via one of the groups set up just for the purpose of providing materials for educational use.

If they're photocopying an entire book without permission, I'd at least discuss the ethical and legal considerations; and I strongly suspect that the school already has a policy about use of copyright protected material.

 

[TheNighSwan]

What is taken from the copyright owner is the opportunity to sell a copy to someone who would have bought it, but who got a copy for free or at lower cost from someone else who made and gave/sold an illegal copy. It's stealing an opportunity to make a sale from the copyright owner.

But buying a used copy, handing it over to someone, or even simply borrowing a copy from someone also does all that.

The problematic part, legally, is not the (hypothetical) money lost by the copyright owner. It's that a copy is being made without consent from nor compensation to the copyright owner (regardless of wether that copy is solid or digital). It's a violation of a moral right, not a physical prejudice (even if the copy is a hard copy), and this is why unauthorised copies are illegal, but used markets and handovers are not — because illegal copies are not prosecuted on the basis of theft at all.

Now, if you're talking from a moral standpoint, sure, you can say that, to you, illegal copies feel like theft. But then the poor students can retort that, to them, overpriced textbooks feel like theft.

 

[morrighan]

I am fairly positive that your school has a policy regarding this.

You follow that policy—because you, the school and the student could all be sued.

Also, it's still wrong to defraud the author and the publisher. It's not the way to behave.

Sadly because I teach under the Community Education part of the college (non-credit courses), we're all treated as independent contractors and can do whatever we want.

People are talking about instructors photocopying chapters and handing them out to students. A fellow instructor in my program photocopies 2 - 5 pages of a textbook she didn't write, and then charges $20 for those few pages per student. She uses it as "materials" to teach the class and despite complaints, administration does nothing to stop it.

That's why I'm worried about this class since the book I'm using is heavy with anatomical drawings for each muscle and even movement, and how to palpate it. I always tell students to buy the cheaper edition if that's all they can afford and we'll figure out the matching page numbers in class. I even have extra copies that I loan out while in class so no one runs behind.

 

[jjdebenedictis]

I had one teacher who assigned ONE of her own books (amidst many many others she didn't write ) for a class on a rather specialized/niche subject in which she is a leading expert and I was tickled to buy and read it. I felt like I was talking to a famous/important person.

I had a prof who assigned his book for his course, and sold us copies out of a cardboard box he hauled into class. I was not so impressed with this. First, because I didn't think it was a very good book, and second, because I think he was selling us copies he got at a discount from the publisher for almost-full price. So he was definitely lining his pockets in a completely legal way at our expense.

It was a specialty subject, and if he wrote a book for that course, then undoubtedly he was of the opinion that his book was structured perfectly for that course. So it's not something we could complain about -- him wanting us to buy his text for his course -- but there's a built-in potential for abuse when you have a captive audience. And students are essentially a captive audience; if the text is required for the course, then you must somehow get your hands on a copy.

 

[benbradley]

I had a prof who assigned his book for his course, and sold us copies out of a cardboard box he hauled into class. I was not so impressed with this. First, because I didn't think it was a very good book, and second, because I think he was selling us copies he got at a discount from the publisher for almost-full price. So he was definitely lining his pockets in a completely legal way at our expense.

I at first wondered if those copies were books the publisher sent to him for free for him to give/send out to other professors in hopes they would require it for their classes, but such copies are usually indelibly stamped "EVALUATION COPY: NOT FOR SALE" by the publisher.

 

[benbradley]

I don't understand the insistence that they are morally equivalent. Not even all kinds of physical theft are morally equivalent.

Perhaps equivalent is too strong or precise a word. They are all morally wrong.

As has been pointed out, that's not always true. A significant proportion of the time, that person wouldn't have bought it anyway.

Yes, it's not always true. But some other people WOULD have bought it had illegal copies not been available, and THAT is a loss to the copyright holder.

But buying a used copy, handing it over to someone, or even simply borrowing a copy from someone also does all that.

No, once a new physical book is bought, the royalty is paid to the copyright holder. Giving or selling a used book to a new owner doesn't make a new copy.

The problematic part, legally, is not the (hypothetical) money lost by the copyright owner. It's that a copy is being made without consent from nor compensation to the copyright owner (regardless of wether that copy is solid or digital). It's a violation of a moral right, not a physical prejudice (even if the copy is a hard copy), and this is why unauthorised copies are illegal, but used markets and handovers are not — because illegal copies are not prosecuted on the basis of theft at all.

Now, if you're talking from a moral standpoint, sure, you can say that, to you, illegal copies feel like theft. But then the poor students can retort that, to them, overpriced textbooks feel like theft.

I suppose "theft" is a word with a specific legal meaning that may not apply to copyright, but I see it as a moral wrong.

As to what something "feels like," I'll let a judge say what it "feels like" legally.

 

[kuwisdelu]

But some other people WOULD have bought it had illegal copies not been available, and THAT is a loss to the copyright holder.

No, once a new physical book is bought, the royalty is paid to the copyright holder. Giving or selling a used book to a new owner doesn't make a new copy.

The problematic part, legally, is not the (hypothetical) money lost by the copyright owner.

The lack of a profit is not the same as a loss.

For what it's worth, it's not that I think pirating isn't morally wrong — it's just that so much of the moral outrage stems from false logic and flawed arguments.

 

[Reziac]

I think a good number of writers these days understand that if they make their book in a digital format, some illegal downloads are inevitable.

Ask Baen what that did for them. Consider that they've made huge swaths of their catalog freely available, with no DRM. (And those are NOT the copies on filesharing sites.)

But rather than a voluntary and growable audience as has fiction, texts have a limited and captive audience who may have no choice, other than not taking the class.

The problem isn't the being asked to pay for them, it's being blackmailed with prices far above that for the same book in foreign markets. Is that any more ethical than pirating the text??

 

[Hapax Legomenon]

Ask Baen what that did for them. Consider that they've made huge swaths of their catalog freely available, with no DRM. (And those are NOT the copies on filesharing sites.)

But rather than a voluntary and growable audience as has fiction, texts have a limited and captive audience who may have no choice, other than not taking the class.

The problem isn't the being asked to pay for them, it's being blackmailed with prices far above that for the same book in foreign markets. Is that any more ethical than pirating the text??

Well I was writing in response to the apparent double-standard. of "gosh I hope nobody pirates my book, that'd be bad!" Saying "gosh, I hope the inevitable does not happen" is pretty silly. It will happen.

Otherwise, the captive class being gouged out in a way foreign markets are not is very much like, well, the prescription drug market. I do wonder where all the money goes.

 

[T J Deen]

I knew a girl in college who would steal text books out of the math labs and study halls when people stepped away from their desks. She would then sell them on ebay/half.com and with 3 or 4 books a week she would make between 500 to 700 dollars.

 

[CrastersBabies]

I agree with Kudis in that if we make this material easier to access--price and whatnot--it might help considerably with pirating. (e.g. the book I spoke about earlier that WAS close to $200, but I had the option of purchasing a "loose leaf" version for a 3-hole-punch for far far less. I'd never seen that before. I was pretty darn happy.)

On ebooks. I'd say that I can probably get around 50% of my books in a digital format. But, I'm in a pretty specialized area now (graduate school) and reading more book-length material written by a single author. While I love that option, I still buy some in hard-copy form because I need to be able to reference things. And right now, digital versions slow me down. I honestly think I'm in my own way on that deal and will continue to get better at the digital referencing.

The problem is that college and textbooks and everything else has gotten very expensive, and the amount of higher education subsidized by taxpayers has shrunk. Students and their families are paying through the nose to go to college or university, and they're graduating with huge debts.

This is a HUGE issue. And it's not just about books. I had to order new office furniture for one of our computer labs. I asked how to go about doing that: call different places? Get some quotes? (I had already already started doing that and taking notes.) Nope, you have to use this ONE COMPANY that is sanctioned by the university. And guess what? It cost me $3000 for a table that would have cost me $250 at Office Max. I'm not an expert, but I imagine it has something to do with contracts and exclusive rights for work and products. Holy cow. Were my eyes opened.

The light at the end of the tunnel (at least here in Colorado) is that by making marijuana legal, AND by giving a good chunk of that tax revenues to schools, we're already starting to see the benefits of that. In this state, funding goes to K-12 first. Universities get what's leftover (which hasn't been much in the past). So, things are starting to bounce back. Of course, there is the issue of that revenue being handled properly and not going toward some fat-cat dean's bonus.

Anyway, rambly rambly....

Not touching the "theft is not theft and here's some semantics" stuff. Are people are actually struggling with gleaning the spirit of this argument? (I'm guessing not, that most people here really do "get it.")

I also don't put this in the realm of plagiarism, let the lawyers at Oxford University Press (or wherever) sort it out. Maybe they care, maybe not. At this juncture, I'd probably be more wary of being nickel-and-dimed by copyright lawyers than I would any academic slap on the wrist. I continue to hear horror stories from pirating pals (music, television, movies) who are learning that yes, it kind of sucks to be caught pirating and costs them far more than it would have to buy the original pirated item to begin with.

As a teacher, I don't keep track of that. I've never seen a pirated copy myself. I've seen many MANY students borrow copies from the library and use those pretty much all semester long. (Our library is actually pretty good about keeping textbooks up to date.) I myself have purchased from ebay, half.com, and othertextbooks sites. Amazon used. Haven't gotten pirated copies. Have gotten a few exam (instructor) sample copies, though. Seems that teachers sell them even though it says right on the front cover, "NOT FOR SALE."

If I found out a student was pirating textbook material, I have no idea what I'd do. They're not cheating in my class and they are getting the information. But, they are breaking some rules there. Could I get in trouble if I didn't say anything? Might it damage our school's reputation in some way? So, not sure. Good thing to ask my dean next time I see him just to get an idea. (shrug)

I scan a lot from books and upload as PDFs, BUT, it has to go through our e-library resource department first. I've had some scanned pieces turned down because either the university didn't have permission (which I've only seen once), or, I had too many pages. (They look at what percentage of the book you are scanning.) They all figure that out for us. When it's done, they send you an email and you direct your students to the e-reserve website to get their copy.

I really hate making students buy books that are expensive. Especially if I have resources myself that can be cannibalized. I'd also say that about 90% of my reading now in a Ph.D. program is scanned PDFs. And many come from journals that are already free through the university. When I teach creative writing, the only book my students have to buy is whatever literary magazine I assign. I choose one super recent one that is available right NOW in order to show students what literary markets are accepting. Magazines like Missouri Review, Glimmertrain, Normal School, Ploughshares, Kenyon Review, etc. ($15 tops in most cases.) And we, as a class, read through it together and critique and study craft elements. (Supplementing this with short stories and essays I've collected over the years that are already approved in our e-reserve system.) Used a chapter or two from Stephen King's "On Writing" as well w/o issue.

(Sorry, tangent)

And you know what? I do agree that instructors who just don't give a crap about what textbook they use and don't consider cost are kind of lazy. But, I also acknowledge that those in the hard sciences, business and other disciplines might have more expensive textbooks that are absolutely needed. I think MOST teachers consider these things. At least I hope.

Anyway, long post. If you read it, you get a kitty belly rub.

 

[KTC]

I think chocolate bars are overpriced. I'm just gonna start taking them.

 

[KTC]

Oh. Okay. So first we have to make judgement calls on whether or not we are being ripped off before we can do the ripping off. Okay. Got it.

 

[robjvargas]

I think chocolate bars are overpriced. I'm just gonna start taking them.

This, basically. Price, and markup, might *explain* piracy taking place, but it does not excuse piracy taking place.

 

[kuwisdelu]

Not touching the "theft is not theft and here's some semantics" stuff. Are people are actually struggling with gleaning the spirit of this argument? (I'm guessing not, that most people here really do "get it.")

I think it's pretty clear that this is a fundamental difference in perspective, and not just semantics.

I think most of the people who do not view copyright infringement as equivalent to theft have no trouble gleaning why some people feel like they are equivalent.

However, it seems that those who view it simply as "theft is theft" seem to have trouble gleaning the spirit of the other perspective, which is also a legitimate point of view. It's not merely semantics.

 

[kuwisdelu]

I think chocolate bars are overpriced. I'm just gonna start taking them.

...how many chocolate bars are you routinely required to buy? What do you do with so many of them?

 

[veinglory]

I would also note that being asked to use the book the professor wrote is not necessarily some greedy scheme. Some of my professors wrote the definitive or only book on the subject they were teaching, they published it with the premier publisher in that specialty field. If they used any other book as their text that would be bonkers.

 

[veinglory]

...how many chocolate bars are you routinely required to buy? What do you do with so many of them?

The same number as the number text books I was made to buy brand new off the shelf during my eleven years of tertiary education. Zero.

One is "made" to buy textbooks much like one is "made" to pay tuition fees, rent, or anything else that is part of attending an educational institution--and there are ways to economize that are within the law.

I sometimes ate food out of dumpsters while I worked multiple jobs. I did not choose to pirate or even photocopy texts. It remains a choice not matter how good one becomes at justifying it. other people choose to do so. That's their business for the most part, but it is still a choice.

 

[kuwisdelu]

The same number as the number text books I was made to buy brand new off the shelf during my eleven years of tertiary education. Zero.

Are you suggesting to buy used chocolate bars?

That's kind of gross.

 

[kuwisdelu]

In any case, although I agree that chocolate bars are overpriced, they're still relatively cheap, so I have to wonder what someone is planning to do with so many of them.

Eating too many chocolate bars is just unhealthy.

 

[veinglory]

Are you suggesting to buy used chocolate bars?

That's kind of gross.

I ate over-date food discarded by supermarket food in the packet but also in the dumpster. Some people consider that gross. I feel pirated books are gross and slightly stale donuts are just yummy and free. That's part of human diversity I guess--what we find acceptable in extremis.