Why is proofreading so expensive?

[Emerald]

Juel - Don't ask me why, although it's probably because I'm in the same hobby group, but I'm getting the feeling that you've possibly been beta reading for fan fiction writers, have perhaps even gotten some good responses from it, and now think you can go into work as a freelance copy editor/proof reader?

If that is the case, can I just say there is a huge difference between beta reading fan fiction, and actually editing someone's work for money. Now I know some copy editors who are also involved in the fan fiction writing community, and who do beta fan fiction works for free when they have the time, so the two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive it just means being good at one (beta-ing fan fic) doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good at the other (copy editing, etc).

Feel free to disregard this if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

 

[WriterTrek]

So, here's a random (but still somewhat related) question.

For the purposes of this thread, let's assume that "editor" means the person who does the big, substantive edit of the book, which can take several passes; "copy editor" means the person who then looks for smaller errors, such as issues of punctuation, grammar and continuity; ...

I've been considering paying someone to have a look through some of my work. I know that you get what you pay for, and I am not going to quibble over prices, but how does the "several passes" aspect usually work?

Say an editor charges, hm, two cents per word. You're looking at $1000 or so for a 50k word manuscript.

In general (and I know this is likely something you should confirm before paying) is that going to include those "several passes" that editing tends to require? Or do you generally pay another full-fee for a second round through?

I'm assuming you pay again if you want the editor to look at the edits you made, given that it takes him/her time to do so and this is a job, but thought I'd ask.

 

[Old Hack]

In trade publishing, where I did most of my editing, this is how it usually works.

The publisher's editor writes substantial editorial notes, and passes them to the author. The author then considers those notes, addresses the points she agrees with, and discusses with her editor the ones she doesn't agree with or understand.

The author might at this point refuse to address those more challenging changes, make the changes the editor suggested, or make different changes to resolve the problems the editor pointed out.

Once the author is finished with making all those changes, she sends her revised ms back to her editor, who will read through it, and make another set of notes, which seek to further refine the work; and which discuss how well her earlier notes have been addressed.

The aim is to end up with a manuscript which is a smooth, enticing read, without any hiccups in the plot, continuity etc which jolt the reader out of the reading experience; so that means that excess descriptions, unlikely characterisation, and so on, have to be dealt with too.

These steps--editorial comments, followed by the author revising--are repeated until both the editor and author are happy with the book.

If you're paying an editor to edit your own book, however, you're likely to get only one pass. Because otherwise, the already-high cost of freelance editing would be prohibitive. If you want the open-ended process that I've described above, you'll have to agree to an open-ended fee.

You're also going to have to ensure that your chosen editor is going to edit your book appropriately: for example, are they going to deal with the big issues in your manuscript, or do they think editing means correcting the punctuation? How qualified are they to know what correct punctuation is? Are you sure that they know enough about editing to correct your grammar without flattening your voice?

It's a huge challenge to find a good freelance editor at a price you can afford. I've read many books which have apparently been edited by excellent freelance editors, and they've often very poorly edited. Many freelance editors get their good reputation because they tell the writers who pay them that their writing is wonderful, and needs very little work--even when that's not the case.

I'm not saying that writers shouldn't seek out editors: just be careful. Be aware that you're unlikely to get the same level of editing that's offered by trade publishers, and that it's difficult to asses how good someone's editing is without supervising them through the editing of several books.

 

[darkelf]

Here is a link to a post by HapiSofi about the questions to ask a copyeditor prior to hiring them. I think it might give the OP some insight into what a copyeditor needs to know and should be able to do.

darkelf

 

[Chris P]

Here is a link to a post by HapiSofi about the questions to ask a copyeditor prior to hiring them. I think it might give the OP some insight into what a copyeditor needs to know and should be able to do.

darkelf

Wow. Great link!

 

[blacbird]

Why is plumbing so expensive?

Why is car repair so expensive?

Why is legal representation so expensive?

Answer to all the above is Einstein's lesser-known equation:

T = $

Where "T" represents time.

caw

 

[Old Hack]

Everyone has time, blac. Not everyone has the talent, understanding, skills and experience to use that time to edit or proof read well.

 

[Terie]

Why is plumbing so expensive?

Why is car repair so expensive?

Why is legal representation so expensive?

Answer to all the above is Einstein's lesser-known equation:

T = $

Where "T" represents time.

Time isn't exactly the meaningful factor here, though it's one. Right now I have a good amount of spare time, but that doesn't mean I can charge people any money -- much less lots of money -- for my plumbing, car repair, or legal representation skills, which are non-existent.

The equation is more like:

S + R + E + T = $

where S represents 'skill', R represents 'training', E represents 'experience', and T represents 'time'.

 

[blacbird]

My point evidently was misunderstood. I'm not knocking proofreaders at all. Quite the contrary. My point was that people you seek services from deserve to be paid for the time they put in providing such. The thread title question is evidence of a strangely common misunderstanding some people seem to have about such things.

caw

 

[DennisB]

Could I make a couple of points?

A lot of us are professional writers, even editors, who know our way around the English language. Is a proof-reader really worth it, if they catch one small error once every 25 pages?

Even if said word slips by, I doubt any agent is going to reject it.

And so very many E-books I've looked at have glaring errors, but that didn't stop them from getting into the pipeline. Yesterday I read the first page of a Kindle novel that misspelled "its" and "their." Another had "threw" for "through." (As in "threw the portal.")

 

[Old Hack]

It's not worth paying a proof reader to work on a ms before you send it off to an agent or publisher: for a start, you can't proof read a manuscript, only a final proof; and agents or publishers will almost certainly want to edit your book themselves, which will make that proof reading pointless. Just get your book as good as you can, and submit it appropriately.

However, if a writer is planning to self publish then it's important to edit and proof read the book because it's kind of shonky to charge people for books which are slapdash. This is rarely something a writer can do alone.

 

[cornflake]

Could I make a couple of points?

A lot of us are professional writers, even editors, who know our way around the English language. Is a proof-reader really worth it, if they catch one small error once every 25 pages?

Even if said word slips by, I doubt any agent is going to reject it.

And so very many E-books I've looked at have glaring errors, but that didn't stop them from getting into the pipeline. Yesterday I read the first page of a Kindle novel that misspelled "its" and "their." Another had "threw" for "through." (As in "threw the portal.")

In many cases, there's no guardpost at that pipeline. There are e-publishers who provide editing services, but people can self-publish works to many platforms without anyone else looking at the stuff. The errors are there because authors either don't know the correct usage or don't care to check their own work in some way.

 

[Cathy C]

Hapi's post highlighted something I was going to bring up in this thread. If you're looking for a proofreader for fiction, please be sure that the person has a background in novels. Grammar and punctuation rules are vastly different in fiction versus non-fiction. I write both, so I know. If a prospective proofreader gives you a resume that only includes articles or non-fiction books, it would be wise to ask why they believe they can proof a novel. Now, it might be that they're fully trained in fiction, but only have gotten paid for NF. The only way to know for sure is to ask. A professional won't be insulted to be asked. They'll consider your concern logical and reasonable. If they try to argue it's the exact same skill, walk the other direction quickly and quietly. JMHO

 

[DennisB]

In the publishing world, proof-readers are people who give the final product a final check. They try to catch the silly little mistakes that have slipped by the author, the agent, and a couple of editors. They tend to review spelling, grammar and syntax, not whether you've got the GAN.

Why a writer in the initial stages of a project would need a "proof-reader" is a little beyond me. An editor, perhaps.

But I'm a graduate of Callous College, the world-famous "School of Hard Knocks." My belief is that you learn to write from writing, and that means failing 95% of the time--at first. An editor won't help you, except to hold your hand (in a literary sense).

My observation (and opinion) is that a person who needs a proof-reader needs to figure out why a proof-reader is needed.

 

[Colleen Cowley]

Here is a link to a post by HapiSofi about the questions to ask a copyeditor prior to hiring them. I think it might give the OP some insight into what a copyeditor needs to know and should be able to do.

This was great -- thank you so much for linking to it. I never would have stumbled upon it, otherwise. Every writer (and would-be copyeditor) should check it out.

 

[articshark]

Here is a link to a post by HapiSofi about the questions to ask a copyeditor prior to hiring them. I think it might give the OP some insight into what a copyeditor needs to know and should be able to do.

darkelf

HapiSofi's post need to be stickied, bolded, underlined, have bells attached to it and prominently displayed in the shop window. Just sayin'.

 

[Deleted member 42]

HapiSofi's post need to be stickied, bolded, underlined, have bells attached to it and prominently displayed in the shop window. Just sayin'.

You can always find it in the stickied posts in Publishing FAQs and Resources

 

[Donna Pudick]

Freelance proofreaders often hire someone to read the copy out loud to them as they peruse the manuscript. That is part of the bill--an honorarium for the reader. In my experience, these duos do the best job.

 

[jeracoo]

You can always exploit college kids to do your proof reading on fiverr, some of them are really good.

 

[blacbird]

You can always exploit college kids to do your proof reading on fiverr, some of them are really good.

You can't be serious, man.

I teach introductory University English composition. Have done so for numerous years. I have yet to see a student I'd trust to proofread a newspaper want ad. Most, who are otherwise smart, can't tell me the difference among a noun, a verb, an adjective or a preposition. And don't even get me started on spelling and punctuation.

In the secondary school system, public or private, overall the U.S. of A. ain't doing doodlysquat to actually teach students how to use the language in an effective, communicative written manner. And we're all suffering from that.

I'd like to think that, after they've taken my class, some of them at least are better for it. But I never know for sure.

caw

 

[Amadan]

You can always exploit college kids to do your proof reading on fiverr, some of them are really good.

I shudder to think of a proofreading job done by a college student for five bucks.

 

[spamwarrior]

You can always exploit college kids to do your proof reading on fiverr, some of them are really good.

As a recently graduated college student in English literature who was also interning in communications on the side and doing various freelance writing jobs, let me just say that I would never ever EVER have trusted myself, let alone another college student, to proof a manuscript and do a good job at it. Don't waste your money.

 

[Old Hack]

Freelance proofreaders often hire someone to read the copy out loud to them as they peruse the manuscript. That is part of the bill--an honorarium for the reader. In my experience, these duos do the best job.

I wonder if this does happen "often": I've rarely encountered proofreaders working in this way, and wonder how listening to another person read the work out could help a proofreader spot the things they need to know. I could see how this might help at an earlier, editorial, stage, but at proof stage it seems a little odd to me.

You can always exploit college kids to do your proof reading on fiverr, some of them are really good.

Bad advice. Very bad advice. It's disrespectful to the students you refer to, and it's ineffective for the writers who might be tempted to work in this way.

 

[Bufty]

Really?

If I were trying to proofread something while someone else was reading it aloud, I'd tell them to shut-up.

It would drive me nuts, and how do I know they read at the same speed as I or put the same inflections in as I would or read the prose the same way?

Freelance proofreaders often hire someone to read the copy out loud to them as they peruse the manuscript. That is part of the bill--an honorarium for the reader. In my experience, these duos do the best job.

 

[Ken]

Really?

If I were trying to proofread something while someone else was reading it aloud, I'd tell them to shut-up.

It would drive me nuts, and how do I know they read at the same speed as I or put the same inflections in as I would or read the prose the same way?

... a happy medium might be to read aloud
while you, yourself, are proofin'.

Or have someone else reading aloud,
while you're at the beach lying in the sun.