Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

smsarber · Jun 6, 2009

FOTSGreg, you might be able to find an answer in the "Index to the Learn Writing..." thread.

But we did discuss it, I don't remember when, it couldn't have been that long ago, though. I believe it boiled down to preferrence and what works. I personally like italics for thought sequences.

smsarber · Jun 6, 2009

MiltonPope said:
When I was a teenager in the '60s, Ellery Queen set me on fire (yes, I was that kind of geek). I only recently found out that this was just the time when he (they) started farming the books out. It didn't matter much.

Leslie Charteris did the same thing with the Saint books, another favorite.

Dick Francis has been pretty good for decades, but through the '90s his books were golden. Then his wife died, and since then he's back to being pretty good. It seems she was heavily involved in his books for awhile.

There have to be more, but these are some I'm familiar with.

--Milton

I'm not surprised, the more I think about it. If you have a lot of ideas, and writers of the caliber needed to produce your work, it kind of makes sense. And with Patterson, I think he saves the Alex Cross books for himself, and gets the help on others, like the Womens Murder Club series.

SilverPhoenix · Jun 6, 2009

There are three ways to denote thought:

1. the 'thought' tag

2. italics

3. nothing

- you shouldn't be using italics AND tag.

Different things work for different novels. Some authors get away with nothing at all denoting the thought because of how their writing flows. Just use what works for you - anything is acceptable as long as there is clarity. What matters is that the reader knows it is a thought or internal dialogue. Redundancy issues will be solved by simply not having too much internal dialogue. If you have so much it becomes redundant, you might as well be writing in 1st person.

smsarber · Jun 6, 2009

I agree--not both. I know that I was doing that early on. You know, I may have even done the whole trifecta: "This is just crazy," he thought.

Italics are good if you don't have other uses for them, like maybe dream sequences. Then I would use the "he thought" tags. I will see if I can find where we discussed it. Don't worry though, whatever you do now can be changed in subsequent drafts. You may read through your WIP later and say, "What the hell, I'm gonna change the thought lines," and that might just be the icing on the cake... Hey! It could happen

smsarber · Jun 6, 2009

Try this, Fots. It's not from the LWwUJ thread, but has some good info.

Blue Sky · Jun 6, 2009

Thanks for the info on breaking chronology. I hadn't thought of it in terms of pov, for some reason. I'll look at your example Jim and I'll be alert to others.

On portraying thoughts: My favorite is denoting by writing flow, but that hasn't always been practical thus far.

A twist on thoughts in italics is use of a different font. Three books I've read that focused on communication with animals and other non-humans used this successfully.

The publisher will have the last word on readable formatting, of course.

James D. Macdonald · Jun 6, 2009

Re: showing thoughts.

I've seen well-done examples of all the possible styles, from not marking thoughts in any way (neither tags nor italics), to nailing them down (tags and italics) with variations of all kinds in between (including, but not limited to, marking off thoughts with asterisks rather than quote marks).

The rules are: 1) Don't confuse the readers, and 2) Be consistent.

Be guided by your ear and your writer's sensibility. You are the artist.

In practical terms, as a new writer, what I'd do is find a book that I admired, see how the author of that book showed thoughts, and do likewise.

Ken Schneider · Jun 6, 2009

In the novel, The Long Hunt, the authors used asterisks, versus quotation marks when two people spoke to each other in Trade talk.

Is that also a common use for noting language difference?

James D. Macdonald · Jun 6, 2009

Ken Schneider said:
Is that also a common use for noting language difference?

Dunno if it's common, but that's how we did it, and the editor didn't object.

James D. Macdonald · Jun 6, 2009

Blue Sky said:
A twist on thoughts in italics is use of a different font. Three books I've read that focused on communication with animals and other non-humans used this successfully.

One thing I always think about is, "How will this work if it's a Book On Tape, or in Braille?

Cyia · Jun 6, 2009

There was a series of kids' books that used bolded italics for mental communication. Drove me nuts trying to read that - the letters bled together.

Rufus Coppertop · Jun 6, 2009

Hi James,

I've been reading this thread up to about page 17, to learn more about plotting. I've already gained a lot but a slight peeve comes up.

[FONT=&quot]

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486229238/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Celtic Art: The Methods of Construction</a> by George Bain.[/FONT]

This sort of thing does not work when I cut and paste it into the URL bar and there's nothing to click on. I find that I have no way of looking at the thing you're referring to as an example.

A question about story arcs.

When you said that one should start a second arc before the climax of the first arc and then substitute the climax of the second arc for the first arc, does that mean that the climax of the second arc obliterates the entire post-climactic section of the first arc?

Is it basically a hijacking of the first arc by an overwhelmingly powerful second one?

smsarber · Jun 6, 2009

Rufus, just click right on this link. There, is that better?

James D. Macdonald · Jun 6, 2009

Rufus Coppertop said:
Hi James,

I've been reading this thread up to about page 17, to learn more about plotting. I've already gained a lot but a slight peeve comes up.

Worked great two (or was it three?) software and hosting-service changes ago. Just cut from the http:// to just before the next quote mark (in this case, ) and paste it in your navigation bar, then hit your Enter key.

Is it basically a hijacking of the first arc by an overwhelmingly powerful second one?

No.

Suppose the first arc is aaaaaaaaAAA (where AAA is the climax). And suppose the second arc is bbbbbbbBBB (where BBB is the climax).

The finished story with the surprise twist ending goes aaaaaaaabbbbbbbAAA.

(Q. How many writers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A. Two. One to screw it nearly all the way in, the the second to add the final surprising twist.)

K. Taylor · Jun 7, 2009

I had this

1. the 'thought' tag

in my story, as I was taught in school that's what single quotes are there for, and an editor told me to change those sections to italics to be industry compliant.

But that's not entirely true?

SilverPhoenix · Jun 7, 2009

I just meant as in - he thought, she thought - by that.

single quotes ' ' and speech marks " " can both be found used for dialogue in books. therefore, it wouldn't be pratical to use single quotes to denote thought.

and I remember being taught that in school too haha.

euclid · Jun 7, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Suppose the first arc is aaaaaaaaAAA (where AAA is the climax). And suppose the second arc is bbbbbbbBBB (where BBB is the climax).

The finished story with the surprise twist ending goes aaaaaaaabbbbbbbAAA.

What happened to BBB, the climax of the second arc? Shouldn't that be in there somehwere?

Ken Schneider · Jun 7, 2009

And CCC when you have to scrap the whole thing and start over.

K. Taylor · Jun 7, 2009

single quotes ' ' and speech marks " " can both be found used for dialogue in books.

I've only seen single quote marks used for dialogue from Europeans. If you're writing for Americans.....

James D. Macdonald · Jun 7, 2009

euclid said:
What happened to BBB, the climax of the second arc? Shouldn't that be in there somehwere?

The point is that AAA replaces BBB, substitutes for it, and becomes it. The readers will say both, "Wow! I didn't see that coming!" and "Of course!"

FOTSGreg · Jun 7, 2009

Uncle Jim, Thanks for the answer. I decided yesterday to just trust my own ear and judgement regarding thought tags, but I appreciate your answer.

Sorry about the frustration yesterday, folks. I felt I was not getting consistent responses, which I should realize is natural with a thread and forum of this size, and that some had not understood my original intent (which was not about the use of italics or underlining, but rather about the use of "he/she thought" in accompaniment to italics or underlining - I try hard to follow Vonda McIntyre's guidelines in respect to formatting a ms).

My apologies for not being clearer and for getting frustrated.

Blue Sky · Jun 7, 2009

One thing I always think about is, "How will this work if it's a Book On Tape, or in Braille?

Me too. That points toward tags and writing flow, doesn't it?

Taking it one step futher, in my book, I used <these> marks for telepathic communication, but my primary beta reader (a multi-published author) questioned their abrupt feel in text. Hmm. I was looking for something on a standard keyboard that wasn't commonly used. <These> marks--arrows?--are used a lot to denote computer key strokes, but not much otherwise.

How about a LOT of telepathic communication? I still like the practical nature of the arrows, but I too would like to share with people who are blind or deaf. Braille would have the arrows and other written symbols, but books on tape are another story.

Blue Sky · Jun 7, 2009

euclid:

What happened to BBB, the climax of the second arc? Shouldn't that be in there somehwere?

Isn't aaaaaaabbbbbbAAABBB an Arabian group?

FOTSGreg · Jun 7, 2009

Another question and this one regards dialogue that is unheard, as in telepathic or psychic contact between members of an alien race.

In one of my WIPs I have a very long sequence in which members of an alien race are involved in a conversation with each other that is more or less telepathic in nature. Right now it's all in italics, but I anticipate this is going to upset a typesetter/editor and possibly look really weird to a reader. Might it not be better just to portray this as normal dialogue in quotes?

Oops, I just noticed BlueSky's question above. Mine is essentially the same.

Ken Schneider · Jun 7, 2009

My first thought on telepathy conversation would be to set it up before the conversation starts.

I'd give it name Telespeech, or some such.

Eork used his powers of telespeech to keep the conversation with Heptop, secret.

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Coming soon to a nightmare near you

Coming soon to a nightmare near you

Revisions, revisions, revisions

Coming soon to a nightmare near you

Coming soon to a nightmare near you

Your Genial Uncle

Absolute sagebrush

Your Genial Uncle

Your Genial Uncle

Rewriting My Destiny

Coming soon to a nightmare near you

Your Genial Uncle

Bah Humbug

Revisions, revisions, revisions

Where did I put me specs?

Absolute sagebrush

Bah Humbug

Your Genial Uncle

Today is your last day.

Today is your last day.

Absolute sagebrush