Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

honeycomb · Apr 24, 2008

Info Dumps

Hi James,

Wow! Thanks for starting this thread. It should be required for all readers.

My problem is info dumps.

When do I use them?

How do I use them?

Do you have examples of good and bad info dumps?

Thx

Diane · Apr 24, 2008

Present tense - that which is happening now
* I walk to the store (simple present)
* I am walking to the store (this is technically "the present progressive" and it's much weaker than the simple present. Present tense helping verb + verb gerund)
* The store is walked to by me (this is the passive and you should probably avoid this)

Past tense - that which has happened
* I went to college (simple past: I did something in the past, and it lasted for some unknown period of time)
* I have gone to college (past perfect: I did something in the past, and I completed the action already. Formed by present tense helping verb + past)
* I had gone to college (pluperfect: this is the tricky one that you should probably avoid -- it's the tense that indicates that this action happened before another action, as in "I had gone to college before I took my big tour of Europe" gives a vastly different arrangement of when things occurred than "I had taken my big tour of Europe before I went to college." Formed by past tense helping verb + past)

Future tense - that which is to happen.
* I will go to Mars (simple future: a statement of definite intent)
* I will have gone to Mars (future perfect: something will happen and finish at a time in the future. It's very rarely used these days.)

James D. Macdonald · Apr 25, 2008

honeycomb said:
My problem is info dumps.

Use infodumps sparingly. The readers need far less information than you think. (In particular, never tell the reader something before he cares about it.)

Sometimes the best way to deliver an infodump is to just take a paragraph or so saying the thing.

The worst way to infodump is with the "As You Know, Bob" dialog trick. ("As you know, Bob, Ronald Reagan was born in an apartment above the local bank building in Tampico, Illinois on February 6, 1911 to John "Jack" Reagan and Nelle Wilson Reagan....") Particularly avoid having two characters explaining things to each other that they both already know perfectly well--two Marine Corps sergeants won't discuss the standard number of men in a standard Marine Corps squad, even if the author desperately needs to let the readers know that there are twelve men per squad.

Good infodumps? Mine, of course.

nybx4life · Apr 25, 2008

Fantasy novel question

Okay, just wondering, in terms of story and cliches, what is one of the basic "avoid-at-all-costs" things I should be aware of?

I've seen you cover idiot plots, and I'm sure my plot isn't idiotic, so I want to see what other things might totally sink a story (my story, to be precise, but any fantasy storyline in general would work)

James D. Macdonald · Apr 26, 2008

Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees. This goes double if the character is female and goes on to a complete and loving description of her breasts.

Other cliches: you've seen the various Evil Overlord lists? Or this list of Science Fiction cliches.

If you want to find out if your fantasy story is Just Another Fantasy Story, you can't do better than pick up a copy of Diana Wynne Jones' The Tough Guide to Fantasyland and read it (wincing) all the way through.

Komnena · Apr 26, 2008

It's sat for some time. I've been going back and taking out all the ly adjectives and was surprised at how much that tightened things up. I think I should have stuck more to the traditional fairy tale I based my messterpiece on. It would have been a stronger story, I think. On my latest look I no longer think I utterly wasted my time. I learned more than I thought in the doing.
Thanks very much for all the useful advice, Uncle Jim.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 26, 2008

Komnena said:
I think I should have stuck more to the traditional fairy tale I based my messterpiece on. It would have been a stronger story, I think.

Try it that way in the next draft. What's stopping you?

Tam Lin

O I forbid ye, maidens a',
Who wear jeans on your ass,
Tae come or gae by San Berdoo
Where Tam Lin's sellin' grass.

There's none that gae by San Berdoo
But wish that they were dead:
He'll either burn you for some weed
Or nail you in his bed.

Janet's put on her miniskirt
Cut high abo' the knee
An' she's awa' tae San Berdoo
As fast as drive can she.

She had not entered in a bar
Nor ordered up a beer
When up and sauntered young Tam Lin
Says "Whatchoo doin' here?"

Marian Perera · Apr 26, 2008

James D. Macdonald said:
Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees.

Would it be any better if the character described something strange? Such as, "I looked at myself in the mirror and applied kohl to my third eye. Lovely."

James D. Macdonald · Apr 26, 2008

Only if the third eye was necessary to the plot, and the reader cared about it by the time it was mentioned.

Melenka · Apr 26, 2008

James D. Macdonald said:
Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees.

I have one scene where my MC does this, but it is brief. He notices his scars and the look in his eyes (after remembering something terrible).

In fact, I have been criticized for not describing my MCs in detail. Basics are there - body type, hair and eye color - but I don't feel the need to go on about them, partly because it's not all that important and partly because I feel readers are perfectly capable of providing the details themselves. Not sure if that strategy is okay, but I suppose if it isn't, an editor will make me go back and put in more.

Exir · Apr 26, 2008

In fact, I have been criticized for not describing my MCs in detail. Basics are there - body type, hair and eye color - but I don't feel the need to go on about them, partly because it's not all that important and partly because I feel readers are perfectly capable of providing the details themselves. Not sure if that strategy is okay, but I suppose if it isn't, an editor will make me go back and put in more.

Don't worry - most readers are perfectly alright with that. I've seen plenty of books where the main character's looks are not described in detail.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 26, 2008

In fact, I have been criticized for not describing my MCs in detail.

Workshop, right?

That's a cheap'n'easy workshop critique: "I'd like to [have more description of|know more about] X."

What that means is that the reader didn't have the entire work available; wasn't under the spell when selection started and had to stop before momentum could build.

Shweta · Apr 26, 2008

Back to descriptions -- how about if there are two races & I'm describing how they see each other? I don't think I've done any descriptions that aren't... biased somehow according to the POV, and providing social information as well as physical. Still.

IceCreamEmpress · Apr 27, 2008

James D. Macdonald said:
Some things that drive me frantic include The Character Describes Himself By Looking in a [mirror/puddle/polished wood on the top of the bar] and Describing What He Sees.

I just finished Laurie King's Touchstone and I thought I would lose my mind from the number of times this happened. Several times per main character, and I am not exaggerating.

I usually love Laurie King, and this book was so disappointing in so many ways--turgid, full of "musing", and then this. I wonder if she's changed editors? It just seems like someone should have read her the riot act about some of the self-indulgences that littered this book and ruined its interesting premise and setting.

"Musing" is the mortal sin I find most easy to fall into. Or rather, my characters do. Also "pondering" and "reflecting".

Melenka · Apr 27, 2008

James D. Macdonald said:
Workshop, right?

That's a cheap'n'easy workshop critique: "I'd like to [have more description of|know more about] X."

College classroom was good for that, too. The profs were fine with it, but there were always folks who wanted all the background questions answered. In a short story, that's neither possible nor desirable. The other place it comes from is friends who prefer to read high fantasy and/or romance novels containing lavish description. I read those, too, but this is not that sort of story. Not really sure what genre (if any) it fits, but it is spare and dark and I plan to keep it that way. My solution is to limit who can read it in draft. Lesson learned.

Komnena · Apr 28, 2008

What has been stopping me is my fear that this next draft will be no better.I'm afraid that I will never have the talent to write something that deserves more than PA.

A. J. Luxton · Apr 28, 2008

I've got a drive-by for Komnena -- I always wind up deeply, madly in hate with anything novel-sized throughout the last stretch and directly after I've finished. I was still in said hate when I sent the latest off, but knew it was a delusion because a pro I respect really liked it; by the time I got the comments back from the agent I could actually stand to look at the thing again, revised according to her comments, and last week accepted her offer of representation.

I think it's roommate syndrome: spend too long dealing with someone or something and all their idiosyncrasies, and that tiny pile of dirty laundry seems to fill the whole house. If a story needs to sit, let it sit. I can't revise while I'm in hater mode lest I mutilate something. Come back to it when you're cynical yet optimistic...

Komnena · Apr 28, 2008

I'm making another try at starting a new draft, which hopefully will be better.

Shweta · Apr 28, 2008

Komnena said:
What has been stopping me is my fear that this next draft will be no better.I'm afraid that I will never have the talent to write something that deserves more than PA.

Maybe just try editing a chapter? Even a paragraph. You'll probably see the improvement

jbryson · Apr 28, 2008

Melenka said:
College classroom was good for that, too. The profs were fine with it, but there were always folks who wanted all the background questions answered. In a short story, that's neither possible nor desirable. The other place it comes from is friends who prefer to read high fantasy and/or romance novels containing lavish description. I read those, too, but this is not that sort of story. Not really sure what genre (if any) it fits, but it is spare and dark and I plan to keep it that way. My solution is to limit who can read it in draft. Lesson learned.

Some people don't want fiction. They want a travelogue.

goatpiper · Apr 29, 2008

Walking the fine line of environmental description...

Uncle J,

Sorry ahead of time if this has been covered by you in this massive thread - I've only poked around it, I haven't made the time to digest the whole monster.

My first novel (currently in revision) is not a fantasy, but I did invent an American east-coast city to accommodate my story. This city has got some very interesting aspects to it, many that could be considered fantastical, but we're talking a modern urban behemoth here.

How do I bring this invented environment to life without getting bogged down in an info-dump? I want it to live and be a character in the novel, not a blockade. Some of what I've written just seems to stop the forward movement of my narrative, but I still feel I need to convey what's in these clunky sections. I know less is more, but I don't want people saying to themselves 'What the $@#$?' while reading it because they don't understand how the city is structured.

Claudia Gray · Apr 29, 2008

I think the level of description of your characters should fit the level of description you're giving the rest of the book. It makes no sense to lovingly describe every curl of your heroine's hair in a fast-paced crime thriller; however, to me it also makes no sense to provide no character description in a very richly atmospheric book that offers detailed descriptions of place. Very detailed descriptions of characters work when (a) they fit with the overall tone of your work and (b) the description of their appearance manages to be about more than their appearance, to also reveal something of the person within.

Right now, I'm thinking of Doctorow's Ragtime, in which he describes Woodrow Wilson rather thoroughly, ending with the line, "He had the prim, renunciatory mouth of one who has eaten fish with bones in it." That's just genius.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 29, 2008

The appropriate level of detail is inversely proportional to how fast the plot is moving.

===================

Now that fictional city: Show people living in it. Your story is about people.

Judg · Apr 30, 2008

Supply the details as needed. People aren't going to memorize irrelevant details and magically recall them when they become important. And find a way to work them in as naturally as possible when you do supply them. Make them a plausible part of the dialogue, or the flow of action, or directly affect the character's mood at the time. There's always a way to make it part of the story.

Komnena · Apr 30, 2008

I'm three pages into the second version. So far I think it is better, although I need to work on the beginning. I start it with action but I'm not sure anyone outside my family would care about the characters from the introduction.

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