Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Hi all!

After a number of long sessions I have finally caught up to the end of this glorious thread. I have had to withhold myself from commenting throughout; after all, a comment I would make about a discussion happening on page 13 would only show up on page 49, and what would be the sense in that?

Be that as it may, I have arrived at last and so I thought I would say hi, and perhaps you will be hearing more from me in the future.

Thanks to Uncle Jim and the others here who have given such great writing instruction. This is by far the best writing thread I have ever read.

Happy Saturday!
Joan

Re: Canonball into the pool!

Hi Wryteress.

The article stated that US history showed two (over-simplified) ways of dealing with those who are different: absorb them so the differences disappear, or destroy them. Canadian history includes the first two, but adds a third: an uneasy sort of truce, "you ignore me, I ignore you".

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I'm curious about the author of the article, because I have never felt that our country tries to ignore newcomers. Some individuals might, but as a whole, we try to welcome them.

The statements in the article you mentioned can be exemplified by how our two cultures are described at times. In the US, I believe it is referred to as 'The Melting Pot'. In Canada, we use the phrase 'The Cultural Mosaic'. Nowadays we try to look at each new immigrant as another patch to add to our quilt. They become part of the whole, but will remain distinct and identifiable forever. At least that's the ideal most of us up here are striving for.

These differing ways of looking at things have to influence a writer as they develop.

Re: Putting it all in one sock

BLAME CANADA!

hi joan!

welcome. oh yeah, and everyone is invited to a cyber party this evening for my new business with Lisa Abbate (that is, ahem, Sugar Muffin), which we're officially announcing today! www.wordmountain.com, a freelance editing and consulting business for serious writers and those that would like to be. go to Office Party, Humor Writing, Announcements, and other places like that! Hope to see you! Q

Re: blame canada

Love that movie! :lol

Re: Canonball into the pool!

Very nice site, qatz! And thanks for the welcome too

Huh?

Pardon me, Maestro?

Did you want to clarify your last statement and tell me how it relates to writing? As it stands it has me a little confused.

Faye::huh

mac:

just let me know, mac, and i can probably have it posted the day jim approves it.

Fowler

Chicago Manual of Style? Hah! I got yer Chicago Manual of Style hangin'!

Go Fowler!

Here is the ultimate reference for every question you ever had about English usage. And it's free!

Or, get it in hardcopy, suitable for smacking other members of your writing group upside the head.

ROFLMAO

:snoopy :jump

Sorry, James, but I laughed out loud about the smacking the others of your crit group up side the head line.

I often say and think things like that but tend to temper them. Or, um, try to anyway.

Shawn

fowler

fowler is good. was a fowler once. we went through the woods with these muskets, shooting birds. :shrug

Re: cultures

What I found particularly fascinating was the link between the concepts a writer absorbs through enculturation and the cultures he or she creates. Since reading that article I took a gander at some of my older stuff, and what do you know, there were bits I could attribute to the old history lessons. Those I could not link to my own country's history were often things I had 'borrowed' from other cultures.

Anyone else notice this? Any questions? Comments? Ripe fruit?

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Hey again, Wy. I thought this deserved more discussion, as it relates to Canadian authors (for example) setting their stories in Canada. This also harkens back to the 'write what you know' adage. I think it would be tough for a writer who grew up in Australia, say, to write a story set in Germany, without doing extensive research. Even then, a native German might pick out inconsistencies no one else would notice. It would require great skill for a writer to fully create a character or setting from a culture he/she was not familiar with. It's one of the challenges we writers face.

In terms of science fiction, where the writer almost always is creating an imaginary culture, I agree that the sensibilities of the culture the writer belongs to are going to seep in. I can't see how they wouldn't.

Re: Cultures

CC said:

In terms of science fiction, where the writer almost always is creating an imaginary culture, I agree that the sensibilities of the culture the writer belongs to are going to seep in. I can't see how they wouldn't.

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Having just read through The Language of the Night, I can't help but observe that Ursula Le Guin (perhaps hereafter to be referred to as Her Holiness Le Guin) commented on this, also. She says:

As soon as you, the writer, have said, "The green sun had already set, but the red one was hanging like a bloated salami above the mountains," you had better have a pretty fair idea in your head concerning the type and size of green suns and red suns. . . .if you are ignorant of these multiple implications of your pretty red and green suns, you'll make ugly errors, which every fourteen-year-old reading your story will wince at. . . .

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I think this brings us back to Uncle Jim saying to tell the truth, whenever possible--your readers will sense it. In sensing that you write truth, they are more willing, when the time comes, to suspend their disbelief.

i hate to change the subject, but . . . .

my beta reader informed me that my characters are a bit overdeveloped, and suggested i underdevelop them. i'm a little lost as to what she means. she's really a newbie like me, so i thought i'd ask the pros. what is the difference between an overdeveloped and an underdeveloped character? thanks.

Re: overdeveloped characters

wow, Kim...not sure what to think about that...is she saying maybe you give too much info, and don't leave enough to the reader's imagination?

I kind of like the idea of "transference/counter-transference" with characters--that is, if I can give enough info to make the character seem familiar to the reader, they will fill in the blanks with characteristics from their own experiences, and people they know...and develop a relationship with the character unique to the reader's own experience/reading.

Now I'm going to borrow from CC, and qualify that with "but then again, what do I know?"

Re: i hate to change the subject, but . . . .

Kim,

Maybe if you asked her for specific examples (or you gave them to us), we could tell better. Your friend's critique is a bit vague.

I'd side with Mac, though, and say that it's probably too much information. Storytelling is all about the giving and withholding of information. Too much info, and the reader cannot get into the story, because it is defined for them. Too little, and they can't stay in the story, because it doesn't give them anything to latch on to.

Re: i hate to change the subject, but . . . .

i think you're both right, i think i'm giving too much info about my characters. i always felt that if i didn't tell the reader why the character did what she did, folks might get lost. but i guess i could loss some of the info, let them figure it out for themselves. i'm going to talk to my beta-reader, see if i can get more information from her. and evan, i like your sig tag. good job.

Re: i hate to change the subject, but . . . .

I think you need to ask your betas the specifics and also realize that not all of them are right, but their opinions would give you some insights. I had one beta who wanted me to explain everything -- why the protag liked red instead of blue and how he and the girl met, etc. and she wanted more internal monologues. While I thought she wanted too much info, now I do think that some of her comments were very useful in terms of story flow and character development.

Re: overdeveloped characters

Kim, in the novel I'm trying to beat into shape, I asked my beta readers if they could visualize each of the characters. The odd part is, the only character they had trouble picturing was the one I spent the most time describing. I thought it was bizarre, until I realized that I had tried to 'force' them to see an image I had in my mind, rather than let them come up with one of their own. It sure is a balancing act trying to convey what you want while leaving enough room for the reader to create an image of the story and the characters for themselves.

Re: i hate to change the subject, but . . . .

I tend to describe my characters with only a line or two, then mostly through their actions and dialogues. It's interesting how my readers visualize them. I wrote one female character as a tall and manish British woman. One of my readers later told me, "You know who'd be perfect in the movie version of this story? Linda Hunt." So it seems like it doesn't matter if she's tall, manish and British... my readers seem to visualize them any way they want.

Re: overdeveloped characters

It sure is a balancing act trying to convey what you want while leaving enough room for the reader to create an image of the story and the characters for themselves.

This isn't actually hard: Only include those details that are important to the story, and don't include the details until the reader cares about those details.

Re: overdeveloped characters

This isn't actually hard: Only include those details that are important to the story, and don't include the details until the reader cares about those details.

Click to expand...

now why is it you make it seem so easy? thanks, jim. oh, by the way, i knew that i was just testing you. that's my story and i'm sticking with it. :hug

Re: overdeveloped characters

I just wanted to have the 1000th post in this thread.

Re:1000th post

I started to appreciate just how much information this thread really contains, when I realized my cut-n-paste document was over 50 pages long--back about a third of the way through...and that's only Uncle Jim....

I'm clipping along at just over half-way there, btw, guys, should have the file to Jim in a couple of days, so he can edit himself.

thanks, mac

thanks for doing that, mac. i was going to do it for me, but i'm hoping uncle jim will share so i won't have too.
:grin