One of those 'Can I do this?' questions

WriterDude · Feb 24, 2015

Never thought I'd have a 'can I do this?' but here goes.

It occured to me that my time travelling MC could quite plausibly bump in to Jimmy Saville. The inevitable consequence of this would be a bop on the nose. Can I do this? Or would it come across as shameless channelling.

Marlys · Feb 24, 2015

The trouble with pop culture references is that they age your work. They're also often geographically limited. I'd bet most folks in the US have no idea who Jimmy Savile was.

JHFC · Feb 24, 2015

Marlys said:
The trouble with pop culture references is that they age your work. They're also often geographically limited. I'd bet most folks in the US have no idea who Jimmy Savile was.

Pretty much

alleycat · Feb 24, 2015

Marlys said:
I'd bet most folks in the US have no idea who Jimmy Savile was.

I don't have an opinion on the original question, but I didn't know who he was until five-minutes ago when I looked it up.

Publius · Feb 24, 2015

Who's Jimmy Saville?

I'm sorry. That wasn't helpful.

shadowwalker · Feb 24, 2015

Another clueless one here. If you're going to use pop culture, make sure the person/item is so iconic, so famous, that most readers will know about it, even years later (ie, the Beatles).

Bufty · Feb 24, 2015

Like other posters, I think it would only have significance to a dwindling number of people, and the obvious question is - why JS and not one of the hundreds/thousands of others who would deserve the same?

If it were simply a passing incident/gesture to vent one's own feelings, I wouldn't do it.

WriterDude said:
Never thought I'd have a 'can I do this?' but here goes.

It occured to me that my time travelling MC could quite plausibly bump in to Jimmy Saville. The inevitable consequence of this would be a bop on the nose. Can I do this? Or would it come across as shameless channelling.

WriteMinded · Feb 24, 2015

I don't know who he was/is, and I'm not going to bother looking him up.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 24, 2015

Of course you can do it.

Everything you write, including the style you use, dates your work. The everyday technology you use, the cars driven, the clothes worn, everything, dates your work. There is no such thing as a book that isn't dated the moment it's written.

If you omit something because people may not know it or him, you may as well not write. I don't know who ANY of your characters are, but it doesn't stop me from reading about them. And if you're really worried about readers not knowing who someone is, there are plenty of words and sentences you can use to let them know.

Really, we write about all sorts of characters who don't even exist, but writers worry readers may not know one who actually does exist? Yeah, that makes sense.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with dating your book, and if you think you can write a book that isn't dated, you're fooling yourself. Nor does it matter. If dating mattered, no one would read the classics, and every writer from Shakespeare to Dickens would be unknown today because no one would read them. And none of them would have used any real figures in their works because readers might not know them, especially a hundred or more years later.

Lhowling · Feb 24, 2015

Personally, as a reader, I have no qualms about looking up a pop culture reference that I don't know, no matter how obscure. I've read plenty of books that talked about artworks I've never seen, music I've never heard, and people I've never heard of. By looking up these icons, I feel connected to the characters and the story. And I've experienced something that I probably wouldn't. I appreciate any story that opens me up to something new.

Don't cop out to using someone familiar unless it's legitimate. Same goes for someone who is obscure (depending on your audience, anyway) but still referential. Jimmy Sayville was someone I looked up and had no problem with that. If he fits well into the novel, go for it.

JHFC · Feb 24, 2015

For me, half the fun of some books is the footnotes.

atombaby · Feb 24, 2015

If the story is good and you establish that this Jimmy Saville is an iconic person for the character, it won't matter how famous or infamous JS is/was. Foreshadowing helps with this, too.

Usher · Feb 24, 2015

I don't see why not. Johnny Rotten spoke about killing Jimmy Savile in 1978. And other people were aware of what he was doing. But I'd be prepared for him to punch you back. He was a fit, healthy man.

shadowwalker · Feb 24, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
If you omit something because people may not know it or him, you may as well not write. I don't know who ANY of your characters are, but it doesn't stop me from reading about them.

There's a difference between the fictional characters made up by the writer and a real life person. I read novels to learn about the made-up characters; throw in some real person and expect me to automatically know who they are? No. I'm not reading to do additional research just so I understand what's going on.

Brightdreamer · Feb 24, 2015

Is it possible to write this scene in a way that it wouldn't matter if the audience knows who you're talking about?

I admit I have no idea who JS is, or why an encounter with him would "inevitably" lead to a "bop on the nose." But your character could bump into someone and wind up bopping/being bopped. If it makes sense in the plot, most people would consider it just another event in the life of a hapless time traveler. Drop a few subtle clues, and those in the know will get the wink-and-a-nod and snicker without you needing to spell it out. (Avoiding a direct mention would not only avoid dating your work, but it would help minimize risk of legal action; some celebrities - or rather, their lawyers - are more aggressive than others.)

gothicangel · Feb 24, 2015

I think at the time his crimes where committed, that 'bopping him on the nose' would have you quickly arrested for assault, and splashed over the Sun front page for attacking a well-loved celebrity.

And another vote for what others are saying. In Blackadder Goes Forth, Blackadder punches Shakespeare in the face, quipping 'that's for generations of school children', but Shakespeare is in a completely different stratosphere of fame.

Brian P. White · Feb 24, 2015

atombaby said:
If the story is good and you establish that this Jimmy Saville is an iconic person for the character, it won't matter how famous or infamous JS is/was. Foreshadowing helps with this, too.

I agree with atombaby. When mentioning someone of personal significance (especially if it's someone few others might even know about), it may help to cite what made them famous in the latter half of the sentence or later in the paragraph in some context that relates to the story at hand, so long as you do it in a way that doesn't stall the story. An example might be citing a song covered by someone few people have heard of despite the song being done and/or covered by artists absolutely everyone's heard of. Give the reader a LITTLE something to bridge the gap. It's all in how you use it.

There are also instances where historic figures people knew/remembered little about were cited by a character during arguments yet the disputers had no idea who those figures were. This can be used for comedic effect if done consistently enough and remain relevant to the story at hand, and it can also be used as social commentary on how little of history modern day people know or things like how underappreciated certain artists are. Think of Burt Reynolds' character in Switching Channels, 1988. In such a case, no one really needs to know who these figures are ... and, if they must know, they can find out later. Again ... it's all in how you use it.

Bufty · Feb 24, 2015

The basic answer is yes, you can do anything.

Presumably your reason for wanting to include it is because it contributes to and fits in the story - does it?

WriterDude · Feb 24, 2015

Brightdreamer said:
Is it possible to write this scene in a way that it wouldn't matter if the audience knows who you're talking about?

Of course. In a novel, even historical figures need some characterisation.

Bufty said:
The basic answer is yes, you can do anything.

Presumably your reason for wanting to include it is because it contributes to and fits in the story - does it?

Of course. After the steady flow of revelations of corruption and perversion that have come to light, you couldn't pass a seventies school or police station or town hall or hospital or what have you, with the foreknowledge endowed by the future and not feel some suspicion and remorse. It's not the crux of the story by any means but time travellers inevitably view everything with modern eyes.

Jamesaritchie said:
Of course you can do it.

Everything you write, including the style you use, dates your work. The everyday technology you use, the cars driven, the clothes worn, everything, dates your work. There is no such thing as a book that isn't dated the moment it's written.

If you omit something because people may not know it or him, you may as well not write. I don't know who ANY of your characters are, but it doesn't stop me from reading about them. And if you're really worried about readers not knowing who someone is, there are plenty of words and sentences you can use to let them know.

Really, we write about all sorts of characters who don't even exist, but writers worry readers may not know one who actually does exist? Yeah, that makes sense.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with dating your book, and if you think you can write a book that isn't dated, you're fooling yourself. Nor does it matter. If dating mattered, no one would read the classics, and every writer from Shakespeare to Dickens would be unknown today because no one would read them. And none of them would have used any real figures in their works because readers might not know them, especially a hundred or more years later.

Absolutely. It a story about a Briton time travelling about the history of britain. The target audience might put it on the best seller list here if its received well, but it's longevity and relevance overseas doesn't hinge on the omission of wider obscurities.

I know I can write it, but the question I suppose is, are there any adverse consequences that i am overlooking?

andiwrite · Feb 24, 2015

Marlys said:
The trouble with pop culture references is that they age your work. They're also often geographically limited. I'd bet most folks in the US have no idea who Jimmy Savile was.

I was about to say ... who?

Brian P. White · Feb 24, 2015

Let's just help everyone out on this one, shall we? Jimmy Savile was an English DJ and TV presenter. He had sexual abuse allegations thrown at him until his death in 2011, then had hundreds more thrown at him afterward, including people in hospitals ranging between 5 and 75 in age. Am I missing anything?

WriterDude · Feb 24, 2015

That's about the long and short of it. Singled him out for special attention on account of his impeccable image at the time, but mostly because he's dead.

neandermagnon · Feb 25, 2015

After what I heard on the news this morning - i.e. the latest allegations involving abuse of huge numbers of women and girls in a hospital which was all covered up - I think a bop on the nose is too good for him. If he did do all that* then being tortured to death slowly is too good for him

*innocent until proven guilty and blah

Regarding the use of this in a time travelling story - I'd leave it out. Nothing you do to him in fiction would be justice for what he did, and there will be a lot of people out there who have been affected by his actions and won't want to be reminded of it, and everyone who knows what he did would think that whatever fictional retribution you dish out isn't enough.

I'd stick to something that can stay within the realms of humour - like the blackadder punching Shakespeare thing. Someone who wasn't really that bad a person, but everyone would sympathise with the idea of taking revenge. I once asked my maths teacher whether Pythagoras was assassinated. Anyone like that.

csdemel · Mar 1, 2015

WriterDude said:
It occured to me that my time travelling MC could quite plausibly bump in to Jimmy Saville. The inevitable consequence of this would be a bop on the nose. Can I do this? Or would it come across as shameless channelling.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does shameless channelling mean?

Roxxsmom · Mar 1, 2015

csdemel said:
Pardon my ignorance, but what does shameless channelling mean?

I wanted to ask the same question, after I googled Jimmy Saville to refresh my memory about who he was.

One of those 'Can I do this?' questions

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